Chockstone Forum

      Sponsored By
      ROCK
   HARDWARE

Chockstone Photography

Australian Landscape Prints

Chockstone Forum - Crag & Route Beta

Crag & Route Beta

Area	Location	Sub Location	Crag	Links
VIC Buffalo	The Horn Environs	(General)	The Horn	[ Horn Guide ]

Topic Date User

Bolting at The Horn, Mount Buffalo 28-Feb-2013 At 9:26:11 AM crazyjohn

Message

On 28/02/2013 rolsen1 wrote:

>Everyone in this thread, as does everyone in life have hidden agendas.
>Not making money doesn't mean you ethical, and making money doesn't mean
>your unethical. It is how you conduct yourself that makes you ethical.

If a guide retrobolts an established trad route to facilitate guiding (i.e. make money) but says they did it because of safety or access, it is so obviously unethical it does need further explanation.

>The people arguing against the bolts also have their own agendas, we see
>it all the time on chockstone, trying to put on a show about how hardcore
>they are. Reputation is their money, reputation is their hidden agenda...
>well not so hidden, quite obvious actually.

Yours is a very cynical way of looking at climbing. There is an adventure element to all climbing especially trad climbing. There are many 'reputation' routes that give the climber a feeling of accomplishment in the face of danger. This is an undeniable part of climbing. Literally earning money by eliminating the adventure of a route and making it easier to guide is so far removed from the "reputation money" one earns by climbing the route the way it use to be.

>The people putting in bolts have agendas as well. Maybe the glory of the
>FA?

Uhhh, duh? People climb for the glory. Is this bad? I hope not. Having an agenda in itself is not wrong. What I am pointing out is that lately guides have been adding bolts to trad climbs in the name of safety, etc. Andrew Davis'(a paid guide) recent comments show that he does not respect traditional climbing. Letting paid guides, who dont respect traditional values, install bolts wherever they want is a bad idea. This is the whole point about hidden agendas. I just think its curious that in Vic and Tas, there have been controversial retro-bolting of trad routes by commercial operaters who say they are doing it for safety.

Andrew is an easy target because his ideas about bolting trad routes are contrary to many people. People are taking a stand because they disagree, not to be bullys! Which new age self-help group did you just walk out of?

Finally, your line about using chalk, etc. is total rubbish. Are you really arguing against using chalk? I believe you are just annoyingly asserting that no one can complain about trad ethics unless they themselves live up to some perfect trad ethic (which you completely pulled out of your ass). Fixed pro (including bolts) has always been a part of climbing. For quite a while, climbers have realized that the cliffs are a finite resource. The heavy handed use of bolts can ruin routes forever. Guiding has been a part of climbing for a long time. Bolts and guiding are viewed by almost every Australian climber as OK. But when a guide places bolts that ruin a climb in order to facilitate guiding, this is a problem. If this kind of behavior is not checked, then the finite resource of cliffs is ruined.

This is not a rant for my reputation. I spend most of my time climbing. I dont want cliffs ruined by people making money.