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Bolt removed at Denison Crag on Ben Lomond 20-Jan-2010 At 2:17:22 PM crazyjohn

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Josh Caple has it right about the situation. My position is: I agree with no bolts at the ben. No bolts, no pittons, no mashies, no hammers and especially no mallets! ;) This will make me sound like a jerk, but I just did (with Gerry N) a new 200 metre grade 25 in Africa with the crux moves above a #2 RP and placed all the gear on lead. I was very happy with the route bolt free. I hope the entire area will ALWAYS be bolt free.

It is a stupid argument that "since there are abseil bolts, then there should be bolted sports climbs", however, this opinion has been stated and it is the most effective and safest way to ensure no bolted sports climbs by saying "no bolts anywhere". Gerry has a heavy handed(some might say dickheaded :) ) approach to this ethic but I think its the right way to go. I go further than Gerry and would ask people to not ever place pittons in Ben Lommond. I think its pretty F-ing pussy. Run it out wimp! :)

I think leaving camoflaged sling abseils are ok. I dont agree with Gerry cutting all the tat he finds. There are several permanent rap anchors at the top of new climbs. I will try to make all my anchors camoflaged.

Of course, it is easier to have bolted abseils at robbins buttress and elsewhere, but its actually not that much more of a pain in the ass without! If you are a psyched climber and want to climb bunches of routes on robins buttress, you can walk to the top (easier and faster than the scree slope) then set up an abseil and climb as many routes as you want, then clean anchors and walk out. This way you dont even walk down the gully. It also means no tat has to be anywhere in the first place. However, if you are a PSYCHED CLIMBER THIS IS PRETTY F-ING OBVIOUS!!!

If you are only climbing one route (i.e. you are a novice rock climber) and you need to retrieve your packs from the bottom, then the descent route will be that extra 20 minutes of ass-kicking you get for the ben lommond experience. As far as the environmental damage from the descent route. It is a non-issue. There is one fairly obvious(could be better)path that everyone takes and this path will be eroded into (gasp!) a devegetated walking track! Its what happens at every cliff on the planet. So save the the tree hugging BS. Approach issues at the ben will be sorted out this summer. It seems that the best solution is to walk to the top of the routes for Frews Flutes and rap in. Scree slope to the bottom of Robin's buttress for one route or walk to the top and rap in for multiple.

Also. Dont bother with P&W. They have nothing to do with the bolts argument either way.