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BOLT WARNING - Pierces Pass, Blue Mountains

Onsight

9-Feb-2009
5:14:56 PM

I've replied to Cujic on UKC.

http://www.ukc2.com/forums/t.php?t=340148&new=5021194#x5021194

mikl law

9-Feb-2009
5:18:13 PM

On 9/02/2009 simey wrote:

>I would be intrigued to see the pull-out strength of many of the old carrots
>that currently exist on existing classics.

This is an email I recently sent to some bolting nerds during a recent extraction of a poor dogging bolt to protect a massive trundle on Big Trad Thong
"On P2 I removed one bolt I'd placed for protection during trundling (it was by a perfect finger crack but I had no gear with me at the time).

Out of interest I did this bolt test thing on it. I would have characterised it as poor in strength during placing. I had a 200mm shifter and I got the bolt to rotate at about 8kg force, after this it would rotate slowly with about 5 kg force. I clipped a bracket to it after this and pull outwards as hard as I could (which was probably 40kg outwards force due to a short sling and slightly awkward position). No movement was evident.

Pulling outwards hard and twisting the bolt about 4 full rotations finally got the bolt to start to come out, once it was out 15 mm it became easier."

That is to say, after spinning it with a shifter (to the equivalent of 300+kg outwards force if you do the maths), then it started to come out with about twice the outwards force of a lot of the Croat bolts.

As Neil said, most carrots have to be sheared off. about 1 in 8 is able to be twisted out with a bit of work. A torque wrench will be used in the next chopping spree to give some test results.
Carrots at araps and the gramps will probably have worse results, as they are overtapered and typically only touch the rock for a short length. Expansions or glue ins are best there I think.


nmonteith

9-Feb-2009
5:18:25 PM

mikl law

9-Feb-2009
5:24:08 PM

On 9/02/2009 Onsight wrote:
>I've replied to Cujic on UKC.
>
>http://www.ukc2.com/forums/t.php?t=340148&new=5021194#x5021194

Many thanks for that, I think you have been very polite and restrained considering some of Cujic's comments


manacubus

9-Feb-2009
5:30:40 PM

On 9/02/2009 nmonteith wrote:
>On 9/02/2009 Tris wrote:
>>Many of the bolts which were pulled out of Urbanville (NSW) recently
>came
>>out with minimal effort. These bolts were the stailess steel machine
>bolts
>>with a dab of araldite on the end (not technically a carrot bolt). All
>>they needed was a 1/4 turn and then you pull them out.
>
>Dodgy! I remember there were quite a few coach screws hammered in as 'carrots'
>at Urbenville when i climbed there in the 90s. You could see the thread
>sticking out on the under driven bolts.

No failures though. On the easy angle slabs it's amazing what will stay in. I wonder how long it will take until the climbers of the day are calling our glue-in U bolts and ringbolts "dodgy" and in dire need of replacement?

mikl law

9-Feb-2009
5:35:32 PM

On 9/02/2009 Tris wrote:
>Many of the bolts which were pulled out of Urbanville (NSW) recently came
>out with minimal effort. These bolts were the stailess steel machine bolts
>with a dab of araldite on the end (not technically a carrot bolt). All
>they needed was a 1/4 turn and then you pull them out.

They sound bad, but the person who placed them was proabably doing th best they could at the time.
1) Stainless bolts don't rust into the hole (I've put in wobbly carrots and come back to replace them and not been able to budge them). Their initial placement grip is all there will ever be.
2)Do you remember how much force they took? 10kg on a 200 mm shifter is equivalent to about 400kg outwards force

simey

9-Feb-2009
5:51:32 PM

On 9/02/2009 mikl law wrote:
>Carrots at araps and the gramps will probably have worse results, as they
>are overtapered and typically only touch the rock for a short length. Expansions
>or glue ins are best there I think.

I suspect you are right and that carrots in the Blueys are consistently more reliable than those placed at Araps and the Gramps.

The thing about carrots that concerns me is the number of variables involved with placing them... people's different filing methods, different rock types (which affect what diameter hole is drilled). There is also the problem of placing them so that they don't stick out too much.

Placing good carrots is a real art. And it is impossible to know how good they are from looking at them. Some of the shonkiest looking carrots (the ones that stuck out too far) I have found extremely difficult to extract, whilst some neatly placed carrots could be popped out with almost no effort at all.

I suspect that carrot bolts placed by different climbers would have widely varying results.


nmonteith

9-Feb-2009
8:19:52 PM

Ok, the results are in! As suspected by Andy and Simon these bolts will not work in soft sandstone. I found a piece of medium strength sandstone along the Cook River in Sydney. It has similar properties to the Blue Mountains - fairly large grained and soft enough to scrape easily. I first drilled with an 8mm bit using a 24v drill. As you can see on the video the hole created was more like 9mm+ and the bolt just slipped into the too large hole and was not possible to tighten. I then switched to a 6.5mm bit (1/4inch) and this created a hole that seemed the right fit (end of bolt fits in - but bolt requires several heavy blows of a hammer to get it all the way in). I then tightened it up with a spanner - but as the guys found on the route the bolt just kept pulling out and out and never gripped properly. It felt firm against the rock - like it "might" hold - but then when I put a small hammer through the eye and levered it out the bolt pulled easily. It would not hold anything more than body weight I would suspect.

It came out so easily I see no point in doing further tests with an actual bolt tester. It is clearly obvious that this style of bolt would never hold in soft rock.

Watch the full video here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gzuhyi76UqE

Thanks once again to Simon, Andy and Mike for cleaning up this mess and providing the demo bolt to test.

devlin66

9-Feb-2009
8:37:48 PM

Neil shall be known as 'Lightning' from now on.

simey

9-Feb-2009
8:40:53 PM

Thanks Neil for doing the test and videoing it. Very informative.

cuja

9-Feb-2009
8:42:32 PM

I must appologise to members of this forum. I was tryng several times to put my statment but It vwas denied? So that is the reason why I was answered on another forum where I have not problems with my post.
Boris Cujic


nmonteith

9-Feb-2009
8:51:05 PM

Please try again. Sometimes chockstone doesn't like copy paste material. I think it may be because of strange punctuation which Chockstone thinks is html code.

AndyRicho

9-Feb-2009
9:36:28 PM

Thanks For the testing and video Neil.
I hope through these discusions and tests that both developers and repeat ascentionist can learn things to take with them and help keep us all safe in the future.

gfdonc

9-Feb-2009
10:55:12 PM

Nice job Neil - but you're makin' me seasick.
Someone buy him a tripod for his birthday!

cuja

9-Feb-2009
11:07:53 PM

Once again from me . I would try to explain my statment. If at the end of this post will be not my original post than you can find it on UK climbing forum.

First of all I am realy sorry for things happen and that is the last what I have in my minds. I was tryng whole my carrier in climbing to promote sport and establish a good routes.
Why am only me on web and in conversation? Because my partner is not so much PC freak and he got his e mail a few days ago.
Now some more abaout all of this, I will try to answer on some comments from my post on UK:
1.We do not received any sponsorship for the bolts for this trip. What mr. Carter find is no in connection with our trip.
2. I have not say that we ask for opinion mr. Hayland. It was mentioned only that we was hosted by him ( unbelivable friendly ) and I was say that to ilustrate that we have feel some responsibility / respect for this hosting. Means we do not have in minds nothing wrong , illegal because of this.
3. Maybe is deffinitley irrelevant in whole story but after also hunderds of times analysing this famous dinner I can not remember any clear warnings. I can swear so one day will be judged...
4. Appologise to mr. Carter regarding 9mm bit. It was written somewhere but probably I was automaticaly connest with his name.
5. Regarding hardest part: I was belaying on a ledge before hardest and longest pitch . I can not see Ivica on crux. He say , he is making it arraound 6b+. I belive. I only remember that I was comming from bottom and need to treverse from left to right arraound last bolt before not more vertical ( sorry I can not find proper words) terrain . There was some grass too. I was trying little bit , rain was starting and I was ask Ivica for help. I grab express probably but maybe ( I was think after UK forum abaout that once more ) not ( I usualy do not that way ) , more close I was unclipp and Ivica help me with pulling up. So me personaly have no expirience with grade of the crux.
6. Motivation ? For some of them poor. For me personaly : Why poor ? Because we want to climb a new route on every continent ? What abaout Pou brothers ? Seven summiters ? Climbing higher grades ? Everybody has his own story and motivation
7. Abaout informing by locals : You have right maybe , or better you need to be right.
Maybe this will not excuse us from your point of view, but all over the world is the same . In Croatia we have this all the time with Italians , Austrians , Hungarians. Everybody first climb and call later.
Do I need to call every local climber ? Who are locals in one area? We was in company with some of them , we have showed where we intend to climb ( please do not come back to who was say something ).
8. Regarding topo and my message to mr. Carter is right but all the time I need to explain our feeling abaout that. Means : we have seen that we can drill faster , we put bolts in and hang from them , rappel on them ( many times in soft limestone I have the same situation ). Where we have seen that one of them was bad we fix situation with third on belay or bolt another one. To report abaout soft rock ? you know that , you know Piercess Pass . That was reason why I have mentioned 8mm Raumer bolts expecting reaction on that fact ( not blaming mr. Carter for any responsibility ). For the rest, because we do not try to pull them out we do not feel at that moment that we have craating anything so dangerous . I was belive Ivicas judgement because most of the bolts he was put. Now I was see ...
9. We do not put bolts in soft sandstone. We have climb a lot of new short and long sport routes in Croatia . We have climb clasical aid on Grenland , Chile , trad in Sichuan , Mali...

So If this help it was a little explanation of our view . It will definitley as any other conversation not bring back this young guy. I am very sorry and these days I am realy not sleep well.
I was find some answers from this all . We have make some mistakes maybe but definitley not planned and not because we do not respect Australian climbers.

Please understand me and doi not expect any other post from me ( you can contact for opinion my partner too ) . Not because I am coward , just because I do not like them - specialy not for lynch. Whole situation push me now on some explanations.

If this help I will repeat that I am very sorry . I would like to say thanks to mr. Hayland family and appologise for possible incovenience and to mr. Carter too because I was all the time just try to explain our way of thinking maybe different from that one in Australia .
Boris Cujic - Croatia


nmonteith

9-Feb-2009
11:21:34 PM

Thank you for your post Boris. We appreciate your honesty and your humble apology. I hope this can help to heal a few open wounds between Australian climbers and yourself.

Onsight

10-Feb-2009
12:02:36 AM

Boris - thank you for the explanations and apologies. I can accept what you say and it is good to have some of those things cleared up.

Simon

EDIT: Not that I'm saying that I think that's all there is to this story, just that it's progress.

patto

10-Feb-2009
12:09:07 AM

On 9/02/2009 nmonteith wrote:
>Thank you for your post Boris. We appreciate your honesty and your humble
>apology. I hope this can help to heal a few open wounds between Australian
>climbers and yourself.

I second these thoughts. I was going to write something but I believe Neil has expressed it very well.

I also thank you for your post Boris and respect that you have taken the time to do so. There will undoubtably remain some anger over these tragic events, however in my mind your recognition of the events goes a long way to helping things.

Lucas Trihey

11-Feb-2009
5:20:20 PM

>I understand there was an incident a few decades ago where a climber fell on the Three Sisters
>(seconding?) and their rope cut through and he fell to his death. I am assuming this was on an old
style
>hemp rope though.

Simey - I hadn't heard about that one - but about 20 years ago there was the scout traversing off the
west wall around to the bridge who fell off (he was on the wrong ledge system which petered out in a
blankish wall). his belayer was a novice and was using a shoulder belay of some sort and he couldn't
hold the fall and the rope flipped over his shoulders as he was pulled forward. the climber fell all the
way to the handrail on the walking track about 80m below and was killed. But I'll ask around if there
was a cutting accident earlier.
Lucas

Richard Delaney

11-Feb-2009
6:35:48 PM

I think it was earlier than this - hence the big cross placed on the back of the first sister
that can be seen traversing back after completing WW but before getting around to the
traverse ledge. I seem to remember a climber fell on hemp rope, the fall was held
initially by a waist belay, but the rope cut at the last minute swinging back and forth
across a protrusion.

There are 196 messages in this topic.