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First Climb


muki

25-Oct-2007
10:57:15 PM

On 25/10/2007 gordoste wrote:
>Don't take it personally he just can't help suggesting things. It's the
>pot calling the kettle black anyway, have a look around for the story he
>posted of when he got off-route on Auto Da Fe and ended up on a grade 23
>slab with a 15m run-out. I guess he just doesn't want other people to make
>the same mistakes he made (to quote Billy J).

Not the same situation at all, I got off route, and then made an irreversible move, and it's not like I don't
know how to place gear!.....there was no gear!, totally different situation, but years of running out gear on
climbs let me keep my act together and not panick, then I would definitely have fallen off!


n00bpwn3r

25-Oct-2007
11:16:48 PM

What I would like to know bomber_n00b, is how the hell do you manage to get out of bed in the morning without tripping over your own ego.
I guess that's the problem with the internet, anybody can pretend to be anybody they want.


kezza

26-Oct-2007
12:07:03 AM

Ease up there Bomber!!

Think about it, he has read up on placements. He understands how to build an anchor, therefore what good gear is. He understands the safety aspects of climbing. Only thing missing is experience. Best way to get experience, is to get stuck in there. Jump on lead step outside your comfort zone!

Better he had this than none at all.. He's out there climbing trad at Araps would you rather him stay indoors, top rope outside forever? I think not.

Arapiles is the most amazing place and everyone has had memorable experiences there. If your new to climbing, and finally find someone who is willing to take you out lead climbing jump at the opportunity!

GET OUTSIDE WHILE YOUR ALIVE


mousey

26-Oct-2007
12:08:13 AM

hey kezz! come on over to my magical land sometime & say hi!!

james

26-Oct-2007
12:36:08 AM

Just as soon as you have to scrape a friend up off the ground you will start thinking & talking like BP is here. Don't take it the wrong way, he's only saying it so you stay alive.


muki

26-Oct-2007
8:55:58 AM

Thanks james, the scraping up thing is bad, I was'nt saying don't climb! just second more than lead at
first, then top rope lead to get the hang of placing gear while climbing, then lead, it's a natural progresion,
and should not be rushed.
as for kezzas reply, if you can make an anchor, then lead stuff, very different things, anchors you get to
sit or walk around to find exactly what you want, leading you have to make quick decisions on gear while
strugling to stay on the climb, two very different situations, a rushed decision in the leading will be bad.
Thats why I suggest seconding, it teaches more than gear, it teaches how to climb at the same time as
dealing with gear, a good thing. BP

danbaker

26-Oct-2007
9:03:08 AM

Congrats ZumoJugo on your first trad lead, Trad is definately the best!

Chill Pill kezza and noob.... BomberPro is only offering some friendly advice to Zumo, and I think it is pretty good advice....bear in mind that Bomberpro is offering advice from his own experiences which is a great way to learn anything..... learn from other people's experiences as well as your own. That said I also think if you want to get into it it and Trad lead, it is a very good idea to climb on the easier grades / grades you are very comfortable with to develop the experience (I did a combination of both BomerPro's suggestions and leading easier climbs when I first started out). However, as Bomber said, all climbs should be taken seriously... gravity works just as well on the easier grades as it does on the harder ones. And again to quote Bomber, there are more ledges/buldges etc to hit if you take a fall on an easier grade so be careful there.

My advice would be to learn everything you can from experienced climbers (like Bomber said), get all their different views and the different ways they do things, and add to this your own experiences and you'll be fine :) Good luck with the Trad leading and stay safe :)

Cheers,
Dan

danbaker

26-Oct-2007
9:11:31 AM

Great suggestions there BP! Good idea to second, then "lead" on top rope to get practice at placing gear. Some great suggestions mate. Some of the stuff I have seen with new climbers...... they would do well to follow your advice :) All credit to you BP for trying to keep the sport as safe as possible!

Cheers,
Dan


westie

26-Oct-2007
9:34:17 AM

On 25/10/2007 n00bpwn3r wrote:
how the hell do you manage to
>get out of bed in the morning without tripping over your own ego.
>I guess that's the problem with the internet, anybody can pretend to be
>anybody they want.

You're a tool n00b. BP's advice may have been a bit deflating but its sound nonetheless. Anyone can see it was with the best intention.

Considering the type of sport we're in most climbers you meet are humble, enthusiastic and helpful - BP is an example. When he talks about his own experience he seems to me to just offer it for others benefit - take it or leave it.

n00b my man - I know an ego (or troll) when I see one.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

26-Oct-2007
10:49:06 AM

On 26/10/2007 mousey wrote:
>(snip) come on over to my magical land sometime & say hi!!

Noticed this post link over there ...
>i takes a lot to bring tears to my eyes but f--- i had a couple welling up during this
http://video.astdewtour.com/player/?id=169949

Watching something like this puts a degree of perspective into the depth of feeling that can sometimes unfortunately be associated with climbing, (though that link is not climbing related).

I agree with Westie
> When he talks about his own experience he seems to me to just offer it for others benefit - take it or leave it.

My congrats to BP for being helpful (and also restrained in the face of provocation).


zumojugo

26-Oct-2007
11:04:13 AM

I appreciate BPs advice and am aware that this would be a very sensible way to start climbing outdoors. However, it is not the way I chose to do it. It is easy to assume that someone who takes a risk simply doesn't understand or appreciate the danger. I do apreciate the danger and am aware of the increased risk of injury and/or death on this type of climb, however, that is only if your protection holds. At first I wasn't sure that it would so it made sense to me to do routes that I would be happy doing without protection. The important thing to me is that I was very confident about building the belay as I have done this before and so the only person I was putting at risk was myself. I'm sure someone will now point out what is wrong with what I have put in this post and I look forward to reading those comments.


gordoste

26-Oct-2007
11:41:21 AM

On 26/10/2007 zumojugo wrote:
>I'm sure someone will now point out what
>is wrong with what I have put in this post and I look forward to reading
>those comments.

Aaah, the joys of the internet :)


shiltz

26-Oct-2007
11:50:26 AM

I liked your trip report. It reminded me of some of my own climbing experiences. Like some others here I laughed a bit at the epic you had getting off Mitre Rock but then I remembered some of the times I was lost around varioous parts of Arapiles when I first started climbing there. There were many times I was in a lot more danger trying to find the way off a route than when I was on lead.
I think everyone starts out a bit differently. I remember seeing a photo in the Grampians guide of Mark Moorhead leading a route at Mt Rosea on his "first trip" with the MUMC. I know a lot of people who didn't lead until they had been climbing for many years.
My advice would be to trust your own intuition and common sense. Listen to what other people tell you, but do so critically and decide for yourself what level of risk you are comfortable with. Most of all, set your own pace.

I'm looking forward to the next trip report.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

26-Oct-2007
1:00:57 PM

Yeah! (what shiltz wrote).

james

27-Oct-2007
7:49:42 AM

On 26/10/2007 zumojugo wrote:
>The important thing to me is that I was very confident about
>building the belay as I have done this before and so the only person I
>was putting at risk was myself. I'm sure someone will now point out what
>is wrong with what I have put in this post and I look forward to reading
>those comments.

building belays is very important, but if you're out climbing with a mate & you decide to run it out & hurt yourself, its your mate that will be dealing with the consequences (ie rescuing you, calling the ambulance etc) - its not just you that is affected by your decisions when climbing. Its not really that often that things go wrong when climbing, but when they do go wrong the consequences are severe - the shit really hits the fan!

climbing harder gets to a point when falling is a regular & accepted part of the game - & of course the falling part comes at different times/grades for different people. If you want a long climbing career then you need to make sure you are 200% confident in your technical skills (ie gear placements, spacial awareness when you're flying through the air etc) & climbing ability BEFORE you get to the point of falling off.


muki

27-Oct-2007
9:55:06 AM

A falling workshop is great for two reasons.
The first is to set up a situation that teaches how to fall off, and land the best way, a huge skill to
have.
The second is to fall, and trust your gear, this can be done by having a bolt that is a backup to the trad
that is fallen on, preferably a cam (easy to get out) then a nut, this might have to be forcefully
removed after a few good falls!
The cliff should be tall enough and steep enough to avoid any obstacles on the fall, and then just work
on tacking bigger falls every time you are getting ok with the distance, beware of "short ropeing" the
first falls, that means not getting enough rope to fall onto, this slams you into the wall quite hard, also
pushing out too hard will have the same affect, start with 2m of rope out from your waist to the gear,
then 3m etc.
this will be a huge benefit to the confidence of a leader, as they will know that the gear holds, and that
falling is'nt so bad, the fear of the unknown is our greatest fear! remove this unknown and it allows the
leader to feel confident about the outcome of a fall, this also creates the spacial awarness that james
was talking about. BP


kezza

27-Oct-2007
10:10:13 AM

Good text book advice from bomber, but let him start the way he wants, no point saying another way is better. If he's out climbing then that is better.
Climb away buddy, keep your wits about you. Enjoy what the rock has to teach you!


muki

27-Oct-2007
5:02:23 PM

Kezza
I can't see any where in my posts that says he is not allowed to start the way he wants, comments from
you like "ease up there" and "let him start the way he wants", are a bit misleading IMO, they are
suggesting that I am not allowing him to have a choice, on the contrary, I am simply giving him more
choice, and allowing him to choose what he would prefer to do, now that he is aware of those choices.
"Keeping your wits about you " and "Enjoy what the rock has to teach you" sound very sage advice, I
hope that the lesson does'nt go somthing like 85kg times 9.8m squared = terminal velocity of 50.6km/ps
and an impact force of over a ton, human bodys are not designed to handle such forces well and the
rocks teachings are a pretty permanent from the vantage point of a wheelchair or grave. BP

simey

28-Oct-2007
11:39:20 AM

Although Bomber Pro raises some relevant points, I reckon Zumogugo showed a fair bit of common sense in his approach to learning to lead.

I'm a big fan of people getting on the sharp-end early and leading really easy routes (like you get at Arapiles).

People learn so much more when they have to do it themselves.

Over teaching is a common problem that I see nowadays in climbing instruction. A lot of beginner climbers are inundated with too much information too early, when the emphasis should be on climbing conservatively, handling gear and rigging a simple belay.

Get some feedback from an experienced climber/instructor, stick to easy routes for a few weekends (under grade 10/12), follow the dictum 'the leader never falls' and hopefully you won't climb into a dangerous situation.

uwhp510

28-Oct-2007
3:22:20 PM

I led a couple of routes on my first or second day climbing outdoors and actually got harangued by my climbing partner (who was my dad) for lacing them up too much :) They were short and easy enough that I'd have been happy to solo them, so I reckon it was fine.

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