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Chockstone Forum - Crag & Route Beta

Crag & Route Beta

 Page 4 of 10. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180 | 181 to 186
Area Location Sub Location Crag Links
All NSW (General) (General) (General)  

Author
Climbing banned Centennial Trev Blue Mtns - NPWS

IdratherbeclimbingM9
Online Now
3-May-2015
7:59:30 PM
On 3/05/2015 Stuartt wrote:
>If bickering, beard stroking and finger pointing is all that happens here
>I am happy to leave this forum. Seems like a complete waste of time if
>you are not on here to protect areas.
>See you at the crag.

I am a beard stroker, but that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
You might be surprised to learn that we actually have quite a bit in common when it comes to passion for 'protecting climbing areas'.

Here is a Chockstone link that better fits your description...
Heh, heh, heh.
>Seems like a complete waste of time if you are not on here to protect areas.
~> Chockstone is a broad church!
Andy A
3-May-2015
9:10:04 PM
The reality is that national parks would like to put a fence around all national parks and allow acess only to national parks officers,the problem with this is that if people cannot experience these areas for themselves they place no value on wilderness and enventually these areas will be lost to all of us.
There are many legitimate uses for these areas climbing being one of them.,

walkers sometimes tend to believe that walking is the only legitimate use of national parks . walking has had a high impact on the national park far in excess that climbing could ever have.
Have walkers consulted with national parks in the past before they pitch their tents or build their firepits ?,
did walkers of old always consult with national parks before they forged their trails through the pristine wilderness? ,
the well signposted tracks , stone stairs and handrails are there for the benefit of walkers not climbers,

climbers of old scarred the rocks with pitons and damaged trees and caused soil erosion with cliff top tracks but modern sportclimbers place one time only bolts in the route with lower off anchors which prevent clifftop erosion and protect trees from damage,climbers have a vested interest in protecting the cliff for future generations to enjoy,

as I climber with over twenty years of experience can personally say that protection of these areas is important to me as a climber and to other climbers as it is to walkers, I have no intentions of going around pulling down signposts removing handrails and removing walking tracks even though I find them an eyesore because I accept that walking is also a legitimate use of the national parks .

have national parks ever approved bolts in the blue mountains ?,
have they ever approved any new crags before they where opened , does anybody have experience with national parks giving prior approval for climbing or even got a refusal after applying for permission ?,
Jayford4321
3-May-2015
9:30:26 PM
On 3/05/2015 Andy A wrote:
>climbers of old scarred the rocks with pitons and damaged trees and caused
>soil erosion with cliff top tracks but modern sportclimbers place one time
>only bolts in the route with lower off anchors which prevent clifftop erosion
>and protect trees from damage,climbers have a vested interest in protecting
>the cliff for future generations to enjoy,
>

Yeh thats right, and they were doing it in far fewer numbers than the sport has since grown to, plus they didnt use chalk which kills lichen and doesn't wash off overhanging routes. Much better to grid bolt every available bit of rock and get back at those pesky legitimate walkers wanting to go there before they build their steps and handrails with signposts to help save using their google maps phone battery power.
Jdodds
3-May-2015
10:02:57 PM
Gnaguts, There were many legitimate points and questions in the last post (Andy A) and once again, the same as every other reply on here, you just reply with sarcastic crap, or just pick the certain points that suit your argument. You seem to have completely ignored his entire last paragraph.

E. Wells
3-May-2015
10:26:48 PM
http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/917 on another note can someone tell me why there are 15 exploratory drill sites down the caperty river east of running stream. Good onya npws no drills in the caperty huh. Yeah. And as for the crag in question now that it has conflicted with keats publications and really draws the crowds why not put a few big logs across road at top of hill and stop siltation spilling into stream on left. That would actually benefit the tourist destination instead of this double standard B.S.

Macciza
3-May-2015
11:18:26 PM
Andy - Not sure what you base that assumption on, most NP people want people to get out and about in there Park, but yes they do have a few conditions on entry which should be abided by . . .
Love how you make the leap from pitons to sport climbing, completely skipping trad climbing and removable protection in one fell swoop. Do you have any idea how long stainless rings last? Or how long the glue will be good for? Do you really think that SS Rings and loweroffs is the high point of climbing?
The various infrastructure that you complain about is for all park users, including climbers, and it really doesn't matter what you think about it as it is not your call, its NPWS's ...
If the bushwalkers decided to put in a campsite with benches and tables and a little all weather protection out at Dargan I think NP would want it removed as well . . .
Not sure of precise answers to your final questions but basically there has been dialogue going on between climbers and NPWS for decades.

Evan - not sure what you mean by keats publications or how it conflicts, but the development of the area obviously conflicts with how NP want to manage the area in question, which is what they are entitled to do as its their job . . .

maxdacat
4-May-2015
7:37:45 AM
On 3/05/2015 Stuartt wrote:
> Removing the bolts from the arch without causing any damage is pretty much impossible.

You could always put bolts through the bolts to make them impossible to clip! Now where have I seen that before?
Samcross
4-May-2015
10:19:10 AM
On 3/05/2015 Stuartt wrote:
>Does anyone know if Parks is open for discussion on the closure. I understand
>that the hanging draws are a eyesore and they are easily removed. Removing
>the bolts from the arch without causing any damage is pretty much impossible.
>With regards to the trails, who ever built them seemed to put a lot of
>thought into the process as the approach takes a line only over rock to
>avoid erosions that has hampered a lot of other crags in the mountains.
>It saddens me to see a area closed and saddens me even more that other
>climbers would support it. It would be good to see the area re-opened with
>a few basic rules such as no fixed gear, no fixed lines and a ban on further
>bolting in the area. I am happy to remove the draws and the fixed lines
>for parks if they wish me to do so.

Stuart this seems like the more sensible approach and I'm glad to see many others agree with you also, there is no need for the removal of the bolts that are already in place, I would also help in the removal of any fixed draws and hand lines.
As for the climbs, all the steeper routes are awesome and I question anyone saying otherwise whether they have actually tried them.
I have noticed a dramatic increase in use of this area since the first edition of Michael Keats book was released also many geo caches coming down since roger uploaded it online, there is far too much negativity directed specifically at the climbers here, there is nothing further from the truth in my opinion, I have lost count at the number of dogs I have seen accompanying their owners (who are not climbers).
Surely climbers, walkers, geo caches and all other park users can continue to enjoy this wonderful area.
Stuartt
4-May-2015
10:19:28 AM
Should hang a car tyre from it too and chip everything like the generation before us. They were all about low impact on the natural area ;)

BundyBear
4-May-2015
11:17:53 AM
On 4/05/2015 Stuartt wrote:
>Should hang a car tyre from it too and chip everything like the generation
>before us. They were all about low impact on the natural area ;)

I always thought Shopping Trolleys padlocked to the first bolt worked better.




IdratherbeclimbingM9
Online Now
4-May-2015
11:58:51 AM
On 3/05/2015 Stuartt wrote:
>If bickering, beard stroking and finger pointing is all that happens here I am happy to leave this forum.

On 4/05/2015 Stuartt wrote:
>Should hang a car tyre from it too and chip everything like the generation before us. They were all about low impact on the natural area ;)
>

Ahh, welcome stranger, I see it hasn't taken you long to feel like part of the congregation!
;-)

You might find this hard to believe, however there were plenty of opponents to chipping and other unethical climbing practices, etc, etc, in the old daze... Much like the present generation as currently reflected in a small prism known as Chockstone.

Macciza
4-May-2015
12:07:51 PM
Seriously Sam? Are we reading the same posts? Good to know that you don't think the rings should be removed; unfortunately it's not your call and I doubt that NPWS will relent because of your views...
How many people does it need to remove draws and ropes ?? It's not that hard really ...
The alleged quality of the routes has no bearing on the matter of NP not wanting the area developed...
Hmm, I think the people going there regularly also noticed an increase in visitors once the place started to be developed, it's not as though climbers found the arch themselves...
Stuart - real smart, that certainly sets a nice tone for any NPs people who look at this thread; hopefully they realise it as a poor attempt at insultive humor.. Lest they think it might actually occur ....

The bottom line is that NPWS are in charge of what goes on here, the original developers were apparently warned that it was a bad idea but continued anyway, now the place has been closed and they want to remove the rings and people still refuse to accept there decision as if their personal opinion was more important. Do you really think NP will simply give up? I don't think so ...

rodw
4-May-2015
12:33:41 PM
On 4/05/2015 Macciza wrote:
>The bottom line is that NPWS are in charge of what goes on here,

For once I agree with Macca (I think its actually a first? :))..NPWS are the land managers so if they say the bolts have to go they go...if you want to discuss it, simply get of chockstone and do it with the people making the decision...his contact details were in the first post.
Samcross
4-May-2015
3:06:12 PM
Macca you have jumped down the throat of every single person that has posted on here with differing views to your own. We have now all read your thoughts many many times and thanks for sharing, but I do feel that my views and others are just as valid as your own

Macciza
4-May-2015
3:55:51 PM
On 4/05/2015 Samcross wrote:
>Macca you have jumped down the throat of every single person that has posted
>on here with differing views to your own. We have now all read your thoughts
>many many times and thanks for sharing, but I do feel that my views and
>others are just as valid as your own

Seriously? Are we looking at the same thread? I came in half way through, had some discussion with Stuart, who then removed all his posts, and then responded to a few more. I really don't think I have 'jumped down' anyones throat, and its not because of any difference to my own views (which incidentally haven't really been mentioned) but rather simply dealing with the facts of the matter - It is NPWS decision and no-one elses . . .
You may feel that your views are just as valid, but the simple fact is that they don't really matter to NPWS and don't in any way change the reality of the situation . . .

Snacks
4-May-2015
4:54:06 PM
The best way to remove these particular bolts (on the arch) would be using a scaffold platform. And it would probably end up being a lot cheaper (compared to fully insured rope access workers).

Damage to the site using a scaffold setup would only be temporary.

Other areas that can be more easily accessed via abseil should be done by an industrial rope access company. They might cost around $2-3k?? for a couple of climbs that can be removed in a day (long day including travel time). And this wouldn't include any kind of patch work.

Any official shortcuts should be investigated by WorkCover in my opinion as I don't believe amateur bolters should be encouraged to carry out this 'work' and the risks go far beyond those accepted by typical Track or Bush care volunteers. It might be a good time for NPWS to begin setting up a framework to handle these issues sensibly and within safe work practices.

Further to this, since the arch's structural stability has been called into question it would be very inappropriate to expect work to be done to the underside of the arch if they have some advice that suggests it is unstable?


As a disclaimer; I am a rope access diagnostics engineer and am looking at this predominantly from a liability point of view.
Andy A
4-May-2015
6:22:41 PM
A few bolts can hardly be considered destroying the natural environment,

E. Wells
4-May-2015
6:27:38 PM
Its gonna happen. Parks have been nice enough to allow a whole bunch of other sins and transgressions so so be it. Its the sacrificial lamb so to speak.
Andy A
4-May-2015
6:46:26 PM
all interaction with the environment will have have an adverse effect and to believe otherwise is only ignorance, I am not trying to say otherwise but simply to point out that we should minimise or impact as much as possible, I am just trying to point out that there are many ways to enjoy the environment and point out that walkers and climbers should have equal rights to enjoy the environment and should receive equal consideration, I am more than happy for walkers to enjoy the area and infact would encourage it for it is a bueatiful location, I have personally visited the area many times and could not see the bolts until I was standing directly underneath the climbs and made the effort to find them,I do not feel that the natural environment had been ruined by them,the reason why people do not consult with the national parks is quite obvious, they do not accept that climbing in the national parks and would not approve bolts in any location in the national parks and will not approve the placement of bolts or the opening of any new climbing areas, they have never accepted climbers or given them equal consideration they have given climbers which is all we have ever asked for but never received, the cliffs are far from being grid bolted and climbers have no intention of grid bolting, climbers donot find walkers pesky and I have had many positive conversations with walkers I have met during my days at the crag all we ask for is to get the same consideration walkers expect and have received for many years ,
Rawpowa!
4-May-2015
6:57:35 PM
Has anyone asked permission from NPWS for bolting and had their approval given? Genuinely curious.

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