Goto Chockstone Home

  Tech Tips

      Sponsored By

Chockstone Photography
Australian Landscape Photography by Michael Boniwell
Australian Landscape Prints

Chockstone Forum - Crag & Route Beta

Crag & Route Beta

 Page 9 of 10. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180 | 181 to 186
Area Location Sub Location Crag Links
All NSW (General) (General) (General)  

Climbing banned Centennial Trev Blue Mtns - NPWS

E. Wells
2:57:12 PM
News just in....After the week of heavy rain strong winds on Sunday evening saw the large Eucalypt break approximately 10 meters up trunk. The top half of this hefty tree seems to have landed onto middle section of arch thus TOTALLY COLLAPSING the amazing roof of this popular feature. A phenomenal amount of rubble now lies directly beneath two leaning cliffs with the Tree limbs freshly pulverised by such an amount of bright white and creme boulders. Photos to be published soon! wow.
2:58:42 PM
Seriously? That's spectacular timing.
One Day Hero
4:13:43 PM
Show us your photoshop effort Ev, I'm keen to see what you've come up with. I actually thought Hex's fallen over Totem Pole was pretty funny.
4:18:07 PM
So will the bolts still need to be removed from the rubble?

4:20:15 PM
Good one Nave. I couldn't get too good a view today when I went to check it out, here's the best I could find.

Remains of a bolt amongst the rubble (see centre of picture).


Now irrelevant sign.

9:33:20 AM
As a reluctant Chookstonian I fumble onto these murky walls with some trepidation, just to put a few things straight. Firstly, I’m one of those who is helping to remove the bolts from the Dargan arch. Like others, I also complained to National Parks. Because I was appalled. I was appalled as a bushwalker, as a conservationist, as a nature photographer, as an ex-NP officer. And I was appalled as a climber. (I was appalled as a beardstroker too...but hey, I decided shaving was a waste of time long before beards became a hipster accessory). I’m not interested in getting into any ongoing Chucklestone arguments. These are some facts and my own opinions, that’s it.

14 bolts were removed on the first day (not 3). Now 44 are gone, including all those within the arch. If a ‘mess’ was made then I would like to see a definition of ‘mess’ that somehow excludes the agglomeration of rings, draws, broken rock, trashed vegetation, trampling, ‘modified’ rock, tracks and 4WD impact that was there before.

The arch is a beautiful thing, a spectacular natural feature. And it has holds just begging to be climbed. I fully appreciate the urge to make a route out of it, and to bolt it so that others might enjoy the route and praise it. The climbs are surely someone’s pride and joy, and they must be very bitter and angry at the closure…nearly as angry as all those bushwalkers, locals and others who saw the bolting as a desecration and atrocity. A selfish appropriation. Terra nullius all over again.

I don’t think many climbers would claim they should be able to climb and bolt anywhere they like. But quite a few climbers behave as if they think exactly that. On the other hand, lots of climbers thought development of the arch crossed that fuzzy line between what’s OK and what’s not OK…the arch was a bridge too far.

Apparently other climbers had seen the arch’s potential and restrained themselves. Local climbers had been concerned/annoyed about the bolting since it began. They allegedly warned the perpetrators it was a Bad Idea. Three (?) years later it hadn’t stopped. More rings were still going in. Some of us decided to do something. If action was to succeed a two-pronged approach was necessary. NPWS had to be involved. Climbers can’t put up National Park boundary or closure signs, or block the 4WD track. NPWS reviewed the situation and decided it needed to be fixed. Climbers volunteered to help.

Some climbers feel hard done by. They should get some perspective. We’ve got away with heaps already in the World Heritage Area. We got Bowens Creek. We got Gardens of Stone. We got Diamond Falls. And what about the Bell Super Crag and all the stuff in the upper Grose?...a Wilderness Area where bolts should not be placed at all. There are now tracks and broken rock along several once-pristine ridges…

My lifetime of fun in the natural world has had some impacts. Now I like to do my little bit to help the environment, to put something back. And if debolting the arch also sends a message, that’s great.

Finally, the abuse. One individual seems to be copping it, mostly anonymously. How disgusting. As if one person was single-handedly to 'blame' for the closure and chopping. This is a bad misreading of the situation and the bigger picture. If you want to blame somebody, blame all of us, blame the guvmint…or blame the bolters.

11:14:54 AM
On 20/05/2015 ChossDog wrote:
>. If a ‘mess’ was made then I would like to see
>a definition of ‘mess’ that somehow excludes the agglomeration of rings,
>draws, broken rock, trashed vegetation, trampling, ‘modified’ rock, tracks
>and 4WD impact that was there before.

Two wrongs do not make a right, to clarify I don't really care about the closure if NPWS has deemed it as such then so be it...but if you undertake to remove the bolts it should be done with best practice and angle grinding them off so a stub remains is not best practice. Note I'm going off picture above...have they all been done the same way?

It takes a little longer to do it right, and if your removing bolts to fix a wrong I think it should be done right, ie drilled out and hole patched and covered to camouflage hole.
6:06:00 PM
Ok, let's clear a few things up, I have been down to check out the grinding crews handiwork and let me tell you it is disgraceful! I have personally removed hundreds maybe thousands of bolts during the Titanium rebolting in Thailand over the last 8 years, so I feel I can talk with some experience in bolt removal.
I was shocked with what I saw when I first caught a glimpse of the arch last week, there were some 60mm x 60mm holes grinded into the arch itself? I am not sure what method of bolt removal you guys were attempting down there, it's real amateur work guys.
(The photo posted above of the grinded off ring is about the neatest one I saw out of the whole bunch)
I imagine too embarrassed to post one of the others with the 60mm deep hole cut out.
Also the bolts have been removed without any of the chalk removed! It will be almost impossible to do now without the bolts. All I can say it was a rush job, you do a job once the right way guys not a rush job and now have to return to sort out all your mistakes because you were in such a hurry. As the old saying goes "measure twice cut once" maybe you guys had a certain deadline to meet? And that's why you did such a half arsed amateur job. Nice work team ;-)
9:31:35 AM
Is it possible that maybe only the first 2-3 bolts need to be removed thus reducing the work load? I know most people have clip sticks these days but is anybody really going to head down to climb there knowing it's banned?
10:04:30 AM
On 21/05/2015 maxdacat wrote:
>Is it possible that maybe only the first 2-3 bolts need to be removed thus
>reducing the work load? I know most people have clip sticks these days
>but is anybody really going to head down to climb there knowing it's banned?
Angus probably would not be happy with this solution as he has recently stated that "those involved will feel the FULL WRATH of npws and the local bush walkers"
11:08:40 AM
On 21/05/2015 maxdacat wrote:
>Is it possible that maybe only the first 2-3 bolts need to be removed thus
>reducing the work load? I know most people have clip sticks these days
>but is anybody really going to head down to climb there knowing it's banned?

Now that I have gotten up from the floor laughing ... since when have closed crags stopped climbers going to them? You are much less cynical about people than I am.

11:09:31 AM
On 21/05/2015 Jdodds wrote:
>On 21/05/2015 maxdacat wrote:
>>Is it possible that maybe only the first 2-3 bolts need to be removed
>>reducing the work load? I know most people have clip sticks these days
>>but is anybody really going to head down to climb there knowing it's
>Angus probably would not be happy with this solution as he has recently
>stated that "those involved will feel the FULL WRATH of npws and the local
>bush walkers"

There's no need to quote someone speaking on behalf of an organisation that doesn't have the authority to speak on behalf of that organisation. Not everyone reading a comment like that in isolation will know that he doesn't. It's almost as bad reproducing it as it being said in the first place.

11:50:09 AM
Yep - two wrongs don't always make a right, but sometimes a second wrong can right the first one so the end product is less wrong, rather then twice as wrong. Remember the primary wrong here is the fact that people bolted where they shouldn't have and did so knowingly . . .

I'm wondering how many of the current complainants contacted Neil to discuss the situation and offer their services (gratis) to fix the problem? I know I did and that at that time very few people had contacted him . .

Is it really going to be 'almost impossible' to remove remaining chalk with bolts removed? I tend to think not just that it is a bit more work now. I am guessing most of it was rap-bolted in the first place which makes things heaps easier . . .

Wont actually quote you but merely point out that you also don't have the authority to say that he doesn't have the authority.... Not that he seems to be speaking 'on behalf' of the organisation anyway but merely relaying his understanding of NPWS intentions . . .

Finally, I'll repeat, the original problem is the real issue, the fact that the rings were placed is what has lead to their removal. As such that fact should bear primary responsibility.

Did any of the ringers contact NPWS, admit to being the people responsible and offer to remedy the situation? Or did they take it upon themselves to do the removal without contact? Surely that would have been the best course of action, as then they would be the ones being judged on how well they remediated the area that they had destroyed ...
Maybe they can go remove the chalk now as penance . . .

12:06:02 PM
Sorry Macca, claiming you didnt cause the problem doesn't give you leeway or excuses if you do a sub standard job of removing them.....go ahead remove them but just do it the right way and not cut corners.

If you want to claim moral outrage at the bolts then you need to set yourself at a higher standard than the original protagonists, other wise that soap box your on is pretty shaky. What has been done in the past is irrelevant to the current bolt removal process. They are there, and they want them removed so just do it properly...rather than rushing it and giving number of bolts cut tallys as though thats the end game only...with the end game I thought was actually meant to be fixing any impact of the bolts in the first place.

Of course the bolt removers might be doing a good job, only picture I've seen in this forum indicates the pretty ordinary job though...happy to be shown pictures if its otherwise the case. I seem to remember a picture of bolt and patch removal in safer cliffs using the proper method that Neil did a few years back? (can't remember which thread though)...and I think that should be the aim for the end result I would think.

12:32:32 PM
An example of Angus's prior removal work has probably been seen ( or not) by anyone who has walked through Centennial Glen. I recall he was involved with the work done there all those years ago ...

1:01:06 PM
I'm taking about Centennial Trev current bolting removal, whats past bolt removal at a different place got to do with it?...either way if they are doing a good job simply provide pictures of proof rather than a tally of bolts chopped would be a good way to justify the process they are doing.

Ill reiterate I'm not against the bolt removal, its got to be done as NPWS as deemed it so, just the process I've seen seems more about quickness than aesthetics..

Picture from nice to see some pictures of final results.

2:08:08 PM
You had offered the memory of some picture you couldn't find of some patch up job on safer cliffs of Neil's as an example of best practice or something ...
I was merely countering with another example, done by Angus, that many would have seen . ..
Maybe they haven't finished yet ....

2:17:22 PM
True they might not have..wait and see I suppose.

Slow work day so I just trawled through old posts and found the pics of the way I reckon it should be done, granted though it would be much more work on a roof and take more time, but end result much better.

2:42:01 PM
They would have to be some of the worst put in bolts about ...
And extremely easy to clean, compared to a countersunk Pbolt...
Simply a matter of putting a bar in and turning , then patching...
Though they might have used clear resin an local rock dust to color match better ...

2:55:46 PM
So being harder means you can cut corners?..btw I think I mentioned it wouldn't be easy...but whatever lets see what the end result is I suppose.

 Page 9 of 10. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180 | 181 to 186
There are 186 messages in this topic.


Home | Guide | Gallery | Tech Tips | Articles | Reviews | Dictionary | Forum | Links | About | Search
Chockstone Photography | Landscape Photography Australia | Australian Landscape Photography | Landscape Photos Australia

Please read the full disclaimer before using any information contained on these pages.

Australian Panoramic | Australian Coast | Australian Mountains | Australian Countryside | Australian Waterfalls | Australian Lakes | Australian Cities | Australian Macro | Australian Wildlife
Landscape Photo | Landscape Photography | Landscape Photography Australia | Fine Art Photography | Wilderness Photography | Nature Photo | Australian Landscape Photo | Stock Photography Australia | Landscape Photos | Panoramic Photos | Panoramic Photography Australia | Australian Landscape Photography | High Country Mountain Huts | Mothers Day Gifts | Gifts for Mothers Day | Mothers Day Gift Ideas | Ideas for Mothers Day | Wedding Gift Ideas | Christmas Gift Ideas | Fathers Day Gifts | Gifts for Fathers Day | Fathers Day Gift Ideas | Ideas for Fathers Day | Landscape Prints | Landscape Poster | Limited Edition Prints | Panoramic Photo | Buy Posters | Poster Prints