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The greatest sandbags in Victoria

bl@ke

7-Oct-2009
4:41:12 PM

On 7/10/2009 gordoste wrote:

>
>Regarding the original topic -- I've found Wicked Solitaire (17) and Beowulf
>(18) at Mt Buffalo to be tough for their respective grades.

I heard beowolf used to be a 16


IdratherbeclimbingM9

7-Oct-2009
4:45:16 PM

On 7/10/2009 porkpie wrote:
>I think NM is right. The ewbank system is meant to be the hardest move.
> But i believe that is how hard a move feels on the ascent (onsight, redpoint,
>etc) not the dog. So a route like Rubber Lover is 25 but the hardest move
>on the dog is only about 20 (from memory).
>
>Other grading systems (ie English) offer more info on the sustained nature
>and potential danger but are confusing. So my idea is we give a route
>numerical grading say from 1 to 38 or so, let the grade get confirmed or
>changed by numerous ascents and then offer any significant info in the
>route description (such as no gear, sustained, one move wonder etc). Now
>there's an idea........

... or a troll?
~> Way off the mark re the 'hardest move' component...

I suggest you read this post to save BA and me from burying this myth with other similar posts!
☺


contactgav

7-Oct-2009
4:51:15 PM

I agree Neil,
however not all guidebooks have very good route descriptions. some of the older guides don't have any real description at all.
Accurate descriptions can often be blurred by the poetic licence of the author.

Also online guides sometimes don't allow for such scope of route description in the web design.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

7-Oct-2009
4:51:32 PM

On 7/10/2009 bl@ke wrote:
>I heard beowolf used to be a 16

... still is for some folk.

One Day Hero

7-Oct-2009
9:32:57 PM

On 7/08/2003 nmonteith wrote:
>which routes Tim?

How about that "classic 25" of yours on the back of Red Rocks? I says 2 move wonder 23, no stars!


SteveC

7-Oct-2009
9:44:00 PM

On 7/10/2009 porkpie wrote:
>I think NM is right. The ewbank system is meant to be the hardest move.
> But i believe that is how hard a move feels on the ascent (onsight, redpoint,
>etc) not the dog. So a route like Rubber Lover is 25 but the hardest move
>on the dog is only about 20 (from memory).

That is a contradictory statement, but is also the simplest and most accurate description of the
grading system in this entire thread. Nice work Porkypie

But you are talking about the Blue mtns, and I have it on authority that nobody onsights anything here
these days. So the Ewebank system does not apply anymore. Probably need to use the compounding
V system someone mentioned or maybe the Font system.

But for climbing in the style of Victoria and the rest of the world apart from the Blueys and a couple of
nations of Romance extraction, the Ewebank system works well for the simple reason that it tells you
how hard the route is, simply. For any other relevant info or for literary grades and opinions in case you
cant decide whether or not you want to climb it, consult the guidebook. Find the oldest guide book you
can if you want the most accurate information of the route.


Chuck Norris

7-Oct-2009
10:03:23 PM

I've never understood why we get all self righteous about "our" grading system.

I have no doubt Ewbank was visionary in the 60's. But these days all grading systems are open ended,
and if you can't work out a 5.10b is easier than a 5.11c and also that in different countries people speaky
differenty....then....then.....then...do something rude to yourself.

gfdonc

7-Oct-2009
10:13:17 PM

On 7/10/2009 stugang wrote:
>and if you can't work out a 5.10b is easier than a 5.11c and also that
>in different countries people speaky
>differenty....then....then.....then...do something rude to yourself.

What the hell .. do something rude to yourself anyway.

simey

7-Oct-2009
10:20:58 PM

On 7/10/2009 stugang wrote:
>I've never understood why we get all self righteous about "our" grading system.
>
>I have no doubt Ewbank was visionary in the 60's. But these days all grading systems are open ended, and if you can't work out a 5.10b is easier than a 5.11c and also that in different countries people speaky differenty....then....then.....then...do something rude to yourself.

That is because it makes a lot more sense to say grade 20 and 23 instead of 5.10B and 5.11C. What is it with letters and decimal points and +'s and whatever else they use in all these other grading systems simply to signify that one climb is harder than another climb?


Chuck Norris

7-Oct-2009
10:31:21 PM

On 7/10/2009 simey wrote:

>That is because it makes a lot more sense to say grade 20 and 23 instead
>of 5.10B and 5.11C. What is it with letters and decimal points and +'s
>and whatever else they use in all these other grading systems simply to
>signify that one climb is harder than another climb?
>

Why does it make more sense? All around the world people speak different languages. None of them
are right or wrong. But even with my grade 3 math I can work out what is harder regardless of the
system of decimal points and +'s and minuses. You clearly underestimate the intelligence of the
average climber.

simey

7-Oct-2009
10:40:54 PM

Put it this way, when most countries realised that the imperial system was an overly complicated load of wank, they switched to metric. Maybe other countries need to come to the party with regard changing their grading systems.


nmonteith

7-Oct-2009
10:41:39 PM

On 7/10/2009 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 7/08/2003 nmonteith wrote:
>>which routes Tim?
>
>How about that "classic 25" of yours on the back of Red Rocks? I says
>2 move wonder 23, no stars!

Get your facts straight mate - the word 'classic' isn't in my route description - nor did I give it three stars. It's had 14 ascents on thecrag.com and no-one else seems to think its 23. Thanks for the feedback though...

If you want to throw some trash my way just use the right thread...
http://www.chockstone.org/Forum/Forum.asp?Action=DisplayTopic&ForumID=1&MessageID=75404&Replies=120


Chuck Norris

7-Oct-2009
10:55:29 PM

On 7/10/2009 simey wrote:
>Put it this way, when most countries realised that the imperial system
>was an overly complicated load of wank, they switched to metric. Maybe
>other countries need to come to the party with regard changing their grading
>systems.

Umm...we're not sending rockets to the moon. We're not doing international trades for squillions of bucks.
And a unit of difficulty in climbing isn't as simple as 'another pint of c--kles'. Why not deal with the
diversity?

patto

7-Oct-2009
10:56:58 PM

On 7/10/2009 stugang wrote:
>
>Why does it make more sense? All around the world people speak different
>languages. None of them
>are right or wrong. But even with my grade 3 math I can work out what
>is harder regardless of the
>system of decimal points and +'s and minuses. You clearly underestimate
>the intelligence of the
>average climber.

Well it certainly isn't easy to work out how many grades there are between 5.10 and 5.12 some would think it is the same number of grades between 5.8 and 5.10 without knowing the system. Nor is it obvious that 5.10e doesn't exist.

And I would comment about the French system but it is equally confusing with letters allowed after some numbers and no letters after others. Personally I don't know it.

The fact is the Ewbank system makes far more sense than all the others. It is easier to understand and carries no less information than any of the other grading systems except for the UK system.

Its like metric vs Imperial measurements.

On 7/10/2009 stugang wrote:
>
>Umm...we're not sending rockets to the moon. We're not doing international
>trades for squillions of bucks.
>And a unit of difficulty in climbing isn't as simple as 'another pint
>of c--kles'. Why not deal with the
>diversity?

Um, most of us do deal with the diversity. However there is equally no harm in pointing out inferior systems when they exist.


Chuck Norris

7-Oct-2009
11:11:18 PM

On 7/10/2009 patto wrote:

>Um, most of us do deal with the diversity. However there is equally no
>harm in pointing out inferior systems when they exist.

I agree the world would be a simpler place if we all spoke german.


nmonteith

7-Oct-2009
11:17:23 PM

I'm with you Patto...

Some US guides use 5.10+, some use 5.10c/d. Confusing! Why isn't there a 5.9a?
I've seen French guides split the lower grades into letters (ie 4a, 4b ect) but most seem to just use the single number (ie 4). What I found especially confusing was in the Italian Dolimites where they used two grading systems - the French sport grades and the UIAA grades - but both can be written in the same way (ie 7). Problem is a 7 UIAA grade is much easier than a 7 French grade so unless you know what grading system you are reading you can either be pleasantly surprised or massively sandbagged.


mattjr

7-Oct-2009
11:19:29 PM

>on 7/10/2009 stugang wrote:

>I agree the world would be a simpler place if we all spoke german.

yep, you just keep talkin' german buddy. None of us will understand your logic, whatever language you decide to speak.

I'm a metric man myself.. simple, without equal and obvious. : P

simey

7-Oct-2009
11:29:51 PM

I also love fact that UK technical grades, French climbing grades and French bouldering grades all share similar numbers and letters but none of it seems to have any relation to each other.


howzithanging?

7-Oct-2009
11:36:51 PM

yeah WTF is with the french bouldering grades, a 7c in climbing is easier than a 7c in bouldering....... work that out


porkpie

7-Oct-2009
11:39:54 PM

Re sandbags - who cares. I have noticed lots of routes that where put up before bouldering, gyms and sportclimbing where about seem to have disputable grades. The steep routes seem to be easier - I guess since the 80s bouldering and protection have made the steep problems more accessable and climbers have adapted. But equally I find alot of those thin wall and slabs routes that where established 20 or 30 years ago desperate for the grade. Also grading is a very individual thing - so don't bag a first ascensionist if you disagree just enjoy the discount when it is on offer.

Ultimately just enjoy the climb - no-one cares what grade you climb unless you are after sponsorship out to impress the scouts at your local gym.

Having said that - I do enjoy a good sandbagging (Mikl has excelled over the years). Just don't be silly on bold commiting routes - it's all fun and games until somebody losses a............

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