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The greatest sandbags in Victoria

joemor

6-Aug-2003
11:13:05 AM

i still like the idea of being warned of hazards/ difficulties in the description rather than it being reflected in the grade.

(removed)

6-Aug-2003
11:30:22 AM

On 6/08/2003 nmonteith wrote:
>I am confused. I don't beleive protection has ever been factored into the
>Australian grading system. Why have a death runout 24 and a safe sport
>24. Both have exactly the same hard moves.

Sorry Neil, I don't believe this to be true either. Consider a route like Auto Da Fe. If this were a bolted sport route, it would be lucky even to be as hard as 20. Bad Cheques (extremely serious and given 23 or 24 depending on the guide) I did on top rope and I considered it to be technically only 21 or 22. There's countless other examples I could provide too, but I believe the seriousness of the climb has been incorporated into the grade for years. It is really only at the sharp end of grades where seriousness isn't being considered. perhaps this is the oversight ?

For the record, I have also read a couple of times that the Ewbank system takes into account all factors affecting the overall difficulty of the climb, and it specifically listed protection and exposure. I've only heard the "hardest move" theory from a couple of people (well one before you, Neil).


nmonteith

6-Aug-2003
11:32:49 AM

What i don't understand is how people can tell something is hard/runout/dangerous ect by just reading a single number. The way i grade my own new routes is by the toughest move - and then in the route desciption I mention that it has bad protection/runout/sustained ect.

(removed)

6-Aug-2003
11:42:09 AM

Toughest move theory certainly isn't accurate. According to it, not only is Monkey Puzzle 25 or 26, but so is Serpentine ! I could go on an on ... and I will ... Kachoong (21) is now 18 (that move pulling off the deck), Chain Of Fools (23) is soft 21 (getting off the ground), Two Tribes (24) also 21, High Dive (23) maybe 20 if you're lucky.

Ewbank's system suggests that you should be upping the grade for run out dangerous stuff, and then suggesting in the description that it gets that grade because of the danger.

You aren't supposed to be able to tell how "hard/runout/dangerous" it is by a single number. The English have been arguing this for yearsbut for God's sake, let's not introduce "E5 6a" etc. etc. into Australia.

kieranl

6-Aug-2003
11:02:01 PM

Neil,
Ewbank's aim was that the factors that influenced the grade would be mentionned in the description. The grade was never about a single number. It was saying, give an overall difficulty for the grade, taking all factors into account, and explain in the description any special conditions that contributed to the grade.
Where it falls down is that people don't give good descriptions of the dangers of their climbs, but I don't pretend to be able to grade my limbs accurately.
One aspect that is hurting our grading system is good climbers who solo routes to check them out but have no idea of the seriousness of the climbs for the average person.
Kieran


nmonteith

7-Aug-2003
9:12:34 AM

The wierd thing is.. i have done over 200 first ascents in the last 8 years and no one seems to have complained about the grades of my routes!


tmarsh

7-Aug-2003
9:28:11 AM

Maybe they're all one-move wonders!

Anyway, I've complained plenty about your grades, but never when you're around.

tim "Call this 23? 23 my arse!" marsh

Dalai

7-Aug-2003
9:31:57 AM

Grades, grades, grades....who needs them anyway. If the line looks good, give it a try.

Good general rule of thumb with grading new climbs though. Subtract 2-5 grades from what you realistically think it is and you can't go wrong. People may grumble that your climbs are stiff for the grade, but if you have overgraded you will get a reputation and ridiculed.

Long live the Australian tradition of the sandbag


nmonteith

7-Aug-2003
9:37:39 AM

which routes Tim?


tmarsh

7-Aug-2003
9:45:15 AM

Some of your stuff at Centurion is well stiff for the grade. But don't take it to heart. If I can do a route, I think it's overgraded. If I can't do a route I think it's a sandbag.

Everyone's a critic.

Some routes are gifts, others you work for. If the line is good and you like the style of climbing, a tick is a tick irrespective of what grade the guidebook says.

tim

Joe

7-Aug-2003
5:23:22 PM

Nice one Dalai. Long Live the Sandbag!


phil_nev

8-Aug-2003
11:59:45 AM

bmblydad wrote....

"If endurance comes into it then when someone links together 2x15+ move V10+ boulder problems through some cave to create some horrendously long thing that would be higher than anything at the you yangs if vertical should it then be given a Ewbank rating? It must surely be more like a sport climb that never got far off the ground. It requires protection as every man and his dogs splat mat are placed underneath. The difference is surely only the psychological factors and the ability to clip, the physical side must be very similar"

I remeber reading somewhere, that when Fred Nicole graded Eve Reve, he graded it as a route. A climb that never got farv of the ground at grade 35, or V14. this was because the route was so long, it was more like a climb. The entire cave link up should be graded as a horizontal route.

My 2c


phil_nev

8-Aug-2003
12:03:34 PM

Off topic, just a question for chris Noye . You are freinds with Daryl Holmes yes?????


..::- Chris -::..

8-Aug-2003
12:50:23 PM

Yeah we are mates..... Have I met you ?? hmmm If you know daryl then I am scared as to what state i was in when I met you I've had a few big ones with Daryl of late.... Anyways I'll drop you a line via email.... Cheers Chris.: )


tmarsh

8-Aug-2003
1:23:16 PM

On 8/08/2003 phil_nev wrote:

>I remeber reading somewhere, that when Fred Nicole graded Eve Reve, he
>graded it as a route. A climb that never got farv of the ground at grade
>35, or V14. this was because the route was so long, it was more like a
>climb. The entire cave link up should be graded as a horizontal route.

The controversial 'hardest route in the world' Akira (9b, put up by Fred Rouhling in France) is parallel to the ground and not far off it for much of its length. The photos I've seen of it seem to suggest it heads up and out of the cave eventually though.

Just another data point...

tim

Joe

8-Aug-2003
2:03:23 PM

Not the 'Hardest Route in the world' anymore.... check out www.8a.nu for details of Chilam Balam... 9b+, by Bernabe Fernandez. 80 metre long grade 38.

(removed)

8-Aug-2003
2:22:45 PM

On 8/08/2003 Joe wrote:
>Not the 'Hardest Route in the world' anymore.... check out www.8a.nu for
>details of Chilam Balam... 9b+, by Bernabe Fernandez. 80 metre long grade
>38.
Yes it sounds like reverse sandbagging. This is coming from a guy who never leaves his home crag in Spain, sounds dodgy. Alex Huber's response is particularly interesting - some have called it sour grapes, and I for one don't like to see the doubt he has cast over whether Fernandez actually DID the route, but his points concerning the grade are all relevant.

Speaking of grade 38 though, it seems that Trumpet wasn't quite so futuristic as he perhaps intended in his outstaning rock article / story from about 10 (++) years ago if indeed grade 38 has already arrived. I don't remember too much from the article other than "Ben Moon's grade 38 traverse of Tjuringa Wall", something about Mallory guarding the gates of heaven telling those who entered that he summitted, but "tripped on the descent"and something about requiring a license to go climbing at Arapiles. Great writing. Anyone have a copy of this ?

kieranl

8-Aug-2003
11:51:02 PM

Fatboy, this is a new one on me. I have never heard anything about Ben Moon at Arapiles. My first instinct is that it's a hoax. That's also my second instinct. If you can provide any references for this alleged visit, I'll be happy to check them out.

Joe

10-Aug-2003
9:23:54 PM

Um.... I think it was a humour article.


hardcore

11-Aug-2003
10:35:43 AM

On 8/08/2003 kieranl wrote:
I have never heard anything about Ben Moon at Arapiles.

I think you've just been sandbagged in a literal sense Kieran

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