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Bolt removed at Denison Crag on Ben Lomond

widewetandslippery

20-Jan-2010
12:03:19 PM

citationx, hotgemani I see where you are coming from.

My concern is that once an issue is raised in a bureaucracy the system takes control.

The bolt/no bolt arguement at Ben L is to my knowledge a bit of a pissing contest between climbers. A complicated one at that.

If the governmet is attracted by climber noise the simplest action for them to take is say no.

If we come to the attention of control then it should be fought at the first instance. Attack then is the best deffence. To think you can converse with a controlling institution is folly.

crazyjohn

20-Jan-2010
2:17:22 PM

Josh Caple has it right about the situation. My position is: I agree with no bolts at the ben. No bolts, no pittons, no mashies, no hammers and especially no mallets! ;) This will make me sound like a jerk, but I just did (with Gerry N) a new 200 metre grade 25 in Africa with the crux moves above a #2 RP and placed all the gear on lead. I was very happy with the route bolt free. I hope the entire area will ALWAYS be bolt free.

It is a stupid argument that "since there are abseil bolts, then there should be bolted sports climbs", however, this opinion has been stated and it is the most effective and safest way to ensure no bolted sports climbs by saying "no bolts anywhere". Gerry has a heavy handed(some might say dickheaded :) ) approach to this ethic but I think its the right way to go. I go further than Gerry and would ask people to not ever place pittons in Ben Lommond. I think its pretty F-ing pussy. Run it out wimp! :)

I think leaving camoflaged sling abseils are ok. I dont agree with Gerry cutting all the tat he finds. There are several permanent rap anchors at the top of new climbs. I will try to make all my anchors camoflaged.

Of course, it is easier to have bolted abseils at robbins buttress and elsewhere, but its actually not that much more of a pain in the ass without! If you are a psyched climber and want to climb bunches of routes on robins buttress, you can walk to the top (easier and faster than the scree slope) then set up an abseil and climb as many routes as you want, then clean anchors and walk out. This way you dont even walk down the gully. It also means no tat has to be anywhere in the first place. However, if you are a PSYCHED CLIMBER THIS IS PRETTY F-ING OBVIOUS!!!

If you are only climbing one route (i.e. you are a novice rock climber) and you need to retrieve your packs from the bottom, then the descent route will be that extra 20 minutes of ass-kicking you get for the ben lommond experience. As far as the environmental damage from the descent route. It is a non-issue. There is one fairly obvious(could be better)path that everyone takes and this path will be eroded into (gasp!) a devegetated walking track! Its what happens at every cliff on the planet. So save the the tree hugging BS. Approach issues at the ben will be sorted out this summer. It seems that the best solution is to walk to the top of the routes for Frews Flutes and rap in. Scree slope to the bottom of Robin's buttress for one route or walk to the top and rap in for multiple.

Also. Dont bother with P&W. They have nothing to do with the bolts argument either way.

Fish Boy

20-Jan-2010
2:42:24 PM

Camo abseil slings are ok over bolts?

Yeah...

hotgemini

20-Jan-2010
4:23:03 PM

On 20/01/2010 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>Hmm.
>That is not what NPWS did for climbing at Sydney Harbour
>NP. They took the easier for them(?) but draconian option of banning climbing
>instead. The equivalent also happened recently in Qld with the climbs in
>the cave...

M9. In the last two weeks I've spent about 4 hours on the phone with the rangers and DERM/EPA administrators who were directly involved with the Mt. Flinders Cave and they will openly state that the biggest single issue which inflamed the situation was the lack of an effective communication channel between themselves and climbers. This resulted in the rangers effectively prosecuting the climbers involved in absentia and it escalated into a far bigger issue than it could have and/or should have been if there'd been some mechanism to facilitate earlier discussions.

As for SHNP, thats an excellent example of how much National Parks bodies have moved forward in the last decade, rather than actively obstruction, now they are actively seeking input.

Building recognitition of the legitimacy of our chosen recreation is paramount so that we can work collaboratively rather than combatively with land managers.

-Adam.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

21-Jan-2010
10:20:35 AM

On 20/01/2010 hotgemini wrote:
>M9. In the last two weeks I've spent about 4 hours on the phone with the
>rangers and DERM/EPA administrators who were directly involved with the
>Mt. Flinders Cave and they will openly state that the biggest single issue
>which inflamed the situation was the lack of an effective communication
>channel between themselves and climbers. This resulted in the rangers
>effectively prosecuting the climbers involved in absentia and it escalated
>into a far bigger issue than it could have and/or should have been if there'd
>been some mechanism to facilitate earlier discussions.
>
>As for SHNP, thats an excellent example of how much National Parks bodies
>have moved forward in the last decade, rather than actively obstruction,
>now they are actively seeking input.
>
>Building recognitition of the legitimacy of our chosen recreation is paramount
>so that we can work collaboratively rather than combatively with land managers.

You raise fair point's hotgemini.
On one hand I have been around a fair while and seen too many instances of climbers getting the raw end of the bureaucratic deal, but on the other I still engage in dialogue with authorities for climber access issues whenever possible, so I guess I am not a complete cynic* ~> ... just having a bet both ways?
;-)

You obviously know much more about the Mt Flinders Cave issue than I.
Given the length of time since it first came to my attention, I commend you for still being enthusiastic to the point of committing the time you have recently to the cause, as the issue appears to be ongoing(?) despite that I had heard that it was largely resolved (of sorts), when the climbers got their gear back.

*Regarding cynicism; I think some of the present attitude change in authorities is due to a new (younger) level of management coming through the ranks these days. In my experience many of the power plays that happen within authoritarian regimes largely come down to one individual and their particular flavour. I am still skeptical that it only takes one uninformed individual with enough clout within their ranks, to put the kybosh on many hours of collective pro-active work by climbers.

Dealing collaboratively still has frustrations though. A minor example is my recent seeking of feedback from the Balls Pyramid Management Plan Review. Sometimes it seems like trying to get blood out of a stone...

hotgemini

21-Jan-2010
11:05:12 AM

On 21/01/2010 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>You obviously know much more about the Mt Flinders Cave issue than I.
>Given the length of time since it first came to my attention, I commend
>you for still being enthusiastic to the point of committing the time you
>have recently to the cause, as the issue appears to be ongoing(?) despite
>that I had heard that it was largely resolved (of sorts), when the climbers
>got their gear back.

It is largely resolved, I've been working with the same people on different issues/areas, although have engaged in quite a bit of dialogue about flinders, mostly to understand it from their side and to then compare notes.

>Dealing collaboratively still has frustrations though. A minor example
>is my recent seeking of feedback from the Balls Pyramid Management Plan
>Review. Sometimes it seems like trying to get blood out of a stone...

More often than not consultation is tokenistic, this is true. However where we fail to achieve the outcome desired by the climbing community I think we're too quick to assign all blame to the bureaucrat and not look at the shabby state of our own affairs. Lets use balls pyramid as the example, if it was really important to the climbing community it should have result in a least hundreds, if not thousands of responses. Chances are they probably received less than 20, so is the lack of response our fault or theirs?

-Adam.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

21-Jan-2010
11:20:02 AM

On 21/01/2010 hotgemini wrote:
>I think we're too quick to assign all blame to the bureaucrat and not look
>at the shabby state of our own affairs.

Another fair point, though in an old fashioned way I kind of like the anti-establishment/non-conformity aspect of rockclimbing... ~> not helpful in the modern day of negotiation though!

>Lets use balls pyramid as the example, if it was really important to the climbing community it should have result in a least hundreds, if not thousands of responses. Chances are they probably received less than 20, so is the lack of response our fault or theirs?
>
I would hope there were a lot more responses than that, but you are probably right, ie the numbers would be low compared to the over-all participants in 'rockclimbing'. Part of the feedback I am trying to get from DECC is clarification on this particular point (number and category of submissions), and how seriously the submissions were taken by those that asked for them.

widewetandslippery

21-Jan-2010
11:39:51 AM

M9 has hit it on the head. Democracy is a numbers game. Even if every climber in australia is demonstrately proactice in an inititive of converse with authority the population does not have the democratic power to demonstrate its authority. Conversly if we do our thing we are in a position, little guy like, to actively protest, demonstrate, converse and make a difference.

appoligies for the bad spiellling.


Phil Box

21-Jan-2010
2:14:10 PM

crazyjohn has put the point across clearly and succinctly, more so here than in person when I was having this same discussion with him. I actually agree with his statements. Thanks for taking the time to put all of your thoughts down mate. Nice one. Something I can live with actually.

simey

21-Jan-2010
5:29:53 PM

On 21/01/2010 Phil Box wrote:
>crazyjohn has put the point across clearly and succinctly, more so here
>than in person when I was having this same discussion with him.

3am drunken rants from CJ are not renowned for their clarity and succinctness.


Phil Box

22-Jan-2010
8:26:26 AM

On 21/01/2010 simey wrote:
>On 21/01/2010 Phil Box wrote:
>>crazyjohn has put the point across clearly and succinctly, more so here
>>than in person when I was having this same discussion with him.
>
>3am drunken rants from CJ are not renowned for their clarity and succinctness.

I know, amazing innit.

garry

23-Jan-2010
2:13:30 PM

just remember when you say you did a new 25. remember to write in what style. you didnt do it ground up and you rapped in and cleaned it and rehearsed it. no problem , thats great but hundreds of people every day climb at arapiles above number two rps. grade 25 sounds impressive to some but thats no different to a grade 16 climber doing the same. who gives a toss about the grade.
Alpism bro that would be a belay anchor.


BoulderBaby

23-Jan-2010
7:09:21 PM

Why cut the bolt when the rock is already damaged? You're only putting people in danger who were relying on that bolt, and not everyone uses chockstone.


evanbb

23-Jan-2010
7:33:16 PM

On 23/01/2010 Musique wrote:
>You're only putting people in danger who were relying on that bolt

Assuming you're not taking the piss, which is difficult to gauge here, but what do you mean by this? People run climbs out, or even don't place gear, knowing that at 32m there is a bolt and they will be saved?


The good Dr

24-Jan-2010
11:16:23 PM

On 23/01/2010 garry wrote:>just remember when you say you did a new 25. remember to write in what>style. you didnt do it ground up and you rapped in and cleaned it and rehearsed>it. no problem , thats great but hundreds of people every day climb at>arapiles above number two rps. grade 25 sounds impressive to some but thats>no different to a grade 16 climber doing the same. who gives a toss about>the grade. >Alpism bro that would be a belay anchor.

Boy Gerry, nice slap down considering you were part of the first ascent team!! Maybe you need to enjoy things occasionally. I would hazard to say that you have not told everyone about the style you have done all your first ascents in. Maybe you used to carry pins and a hammer 'just in case' when doing new routes at the Ben and slapped in the odd pin - removed on second of course!! Maybe the South Esk can be turned into a trad area. what about the crass retrobolting at hillwood (Ancient of Days was a great gear route). It is great to be passionate about an area and the Ben is great, but why s**t on CJ? And why didn't' you nab the first ascent in better style instead of mouthing off with none?

Duncan

25-Jan-2010
9:06:42 AM

That post was by "garry", not "gerry".


porkpie

25-Jan-2010
10:39:54 AM

Why does one bloke get to determine the policy of bolts or no-bolts in Tasmania? Are other climbers not entitled to thier opinions?

Why not establish routes as you see in the best style and respect others who do the same. I agree with asking people to maintain the character of a crag (ie no bolts at Araps if there is gear available). But consult with the climbers - don't enforce your 'values' by chopping bolts and becoming some sort of dictator.

The rock is not exculisively yours Gerry - though if you establish a new route no-one will retro-bolt it and people will honour the style the first ascent was done in. That's as close to ownership to a piece of rock you are entitled to under the ethos of climbing in public areas.

PS if you come climbing in NSW you are going to be very busy pulling out all the bolts here

garry

25-Jan-2010
2:46:39 PM

im not knocking cj infact i consider him a friend.
its great he added a cool new climb for us to enjoy. enjoy hopefully thats what climbing is all about!!!!!!!!
cj is a good climber and one that i would listen to his view points.

The main issue is the erosion. We need to find a solution. Rapping in from the top is not the solution. The same will happen there.
Bolt rap routes or a knotted sling may work ! BUT STILL YOU HAVE TO GO BACK down that SAME TRACK.
Its going to be a hard one to solve.
I do remember the days when there was no guide, the vegetation was fine.

Garry Phillips


kuu

25-Jan-2010
3:55:20 PM

On 25/01/2010 garry wrote:

> I do remember the days when there was no guide, the vegetation was fine.
>
Oooooff! Touché!

Indeed, this is a philosophical quandary Gerry is going to have to deal with. As co-author and promoter
of the Ben Lomond Guide Book he must assume some responsibility for an increase in climber
visitation to the area. That larger number of visitors will inevitably include some who do not agree with
the No Bolts approach.

I'm sure that in producing the guide, Gerry (and Bob) did not intend to turn 'The Ben' into a Consumer
Climbing Area. But it could be argued that when people have to painstakingly find their way around an
area, and make a few mistakes, then when they begin to unlock the secrets they're more likely to
develop an affection for the cliff and its environs. The trick for any guide author is to attract climbers to
the area and convert them into 'protectors' rather than zealots.

citationx

25-Jan-2010
4:01:16 PM

On 25/01/2010 garry wrote:

>The main issue is the erosion. We need to find a solution. Rapping in
>from the top is not the solution. The same will happen there.
>Bolt rap routes or a knotted sling may work ! BUT STILL YOU HAVE TO GO
>BACK down that SAME TRACK.

did i miss something? are you trying to say that if we rapped back down frews flutes/robin's buttress the track back to the carr villa car park is going to get eroded? a kilometre of solid dolerite scree field is going to have the same erosion problems as an alpine garden on the top?
The entire top of frews flutes and robins buttress are, i believe, accessible over rock the entire way. when you top at at one end, you can walk all the way to the other end without walking on any vegetation..

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