Chockstone Forum

      Sponsored By
      ROCK
   HARDWARE

Chockstone Photography

Australian Landscape Prints

Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

Author

Upside down

patto

7-Jun-2007
2:42:33 PM

I don't understand diehard anit-helmet wearers who take every helmet recommendation as a personal insult.

I understand you choose not to wear a helmet. Good for you. In fact I at times have climbed without a helmet. (Oh Gosh!) But why bring up the helmet argument when among other sensible points a wear helmet is brough up as a way of avoiding head injury? I wouldn't think such a recommendation is controversial.


tnd

7-Jun-2007
2:54:34 PM

Snowball

7-Jun-2007
2:59:27 PM

On 7/06/2007 Sabu wrote:
>On 7/06/2007 Snowball wrote:
>>On 7/06/2007 patto wrote:
>>>Too many recent deaths have been from head injuries.
>>
Sabu, firstly look at the above statement, "recent deaths". I can only think of 2 deaths in the past 15 years in Victoria (not to beconfused with scambling in exposed areas) that were a direct result of head injurys. One of which was a result of an incident similar to what this thread is about. Generally falling 10 plus meters has catastrophic impact forces on the body regardless of whether a helmet is worn or not.

>Enough people have died from head injuries while climbing snowball,

Where is this evidence? If I were to speculate, as you are I, would say most deaths are caused buy multiple injurys with massive rapid blood loss due to shear injuries(major blood vessels detaching from organs eg aorta from heart).
>Heres one example of a helmet being useful (just for you):
Thankyou for doing that just for me, but what you have pointed out is damage from rockfall (which generally was the reason people, myself included, wore helmets up until a few years ago) not the result of being flipped upside down by the rope, which is what this thread is all about.
>but i reckon it would be save to assume that they do help lessen any damage.

I assume also.

Snowball

7-Jun-2007
3:07:44 PM

Patto
On 7/06/2007 Snowball wrote:
>I'm not against wearing helmets, that's a personal choice, just unsubstanciated
>claims.


shamus

7-Jun-2007
3:42:14 PM

Massive blood loss and internal injuries? Yes, quite a feasible way to die. More so in a car crash than in a climbing accident. Break a leg? Easy enough, and it'll lead to a fair bit of internal bleeding, but not enough to kill you, especially if theres a bit of first aid applied. Break two and an arm? Well, you're pretty buggered up, but even then not in a way that will kill you rapidly unless you've got serious open fractures. The same forces applied directly to a skull will cave in the skull, destroy whatever tissue is under there, create haemorrhage that will cause further problems very rapidly (ie seconds to minutes). Whereas a helmet will spread the force out over much larger areas, take the initial blow thus absorbing more energy.

And as far as 'indirect' head injuries, falling rocks could stun you much more effectively if you weren't wearing a helmet. Unconscious, originally minor head injuries, halfway up a climb... Starting to look worse by the minute. If you're leading a new climber who doesn't know any rescue, any loss of consciousness could be fatal.

And how the hell are you gonna get major soft tissue injuries in the torso while climbing? Barring tying the rope around your waist (wasn't that left in the 60s - 70s for a reason?) or impaling yourself on an unfortunately placed piton, I'd say abdominal injuries are the least of your concern. Broken ribs? Fair enough, they suck, but much less life-endangering than a shattered skull. Even pneumothorax / sucking chest wound / whatever you want to call it, can be handled if you know what you're doing.

You know which side of this fence I sit on. 2 deaths in 15 years is still 2 immediate families, many many relatives and god knows how many friends and acquaintances. Your call.

patto

7-Jun-2007
3:46:53 PM

Thankfully, Snowball, there have not been lots of climbing deaths in Victoria, but there certainly have been a few deaths which were solely linked to head injuries. Climbers can a do survive 10m falls. Two accidents immediately come to mind where most probably the helmet saved the life.

The Tower - 30/12/06 Climber fell 8-10m and landed 'head first'. Climber was released from hospital after 8hrs, no significant injuries. It seems his helmet saved his life.

Pedro 13/11/05 Climber fell, ripped 2 pieces of gear and FLIPPED upside down a Climber cracked helmeted head against the rock and bled severly over the cliff face. Pieces of smashed helmet were later found on climb. I don't particularly want to speculate on what would smashed if there was no helmet.

Read, larger forums like rockclimbing.com and you can see plenty of more accidents if that is what you want to read about. Many people attribute their survival to wearing a helmet. Nobody wants to drag up old arguments but it is amazing to see people like you claim that helmets dont offer a benefit.

Snowball

7-Jun-2007
4:07:39 PM

On 7/06/2007 shamus wrote:
>Massive blood loss and internal injuries? Yes, quite a feasible way to
>die. More so in a car crash than in a climbing accident.
Same forces involved, (it's not the fall that kills you, it's the sudden stop when you hit the ground) which is why major vessels detach from organs. Happened to a princess in a Paris tunnel as an example
>Break a leg? Easy enough, and it'll lead to a fair bit of internal bleeding, but not enough
>to kill you, especially if theres a bit of first aid applied.
Considering a broken femur can cause up 2 litres of blood loss with no visible haemorrhage, and the body on average carries 6 litres. Bilateral closed fractures of the femurs is a very real life threatening injury.
> create haemorrhage that will cause further
>problems very rapidly (ie seconds to minutes).
Blood loss is not the issue here it's pressure.
>And how the hell are you gonna get major soft tissue injuries in the torso
>while climbing?
By hit the ground at high speed.
>I'd say abdominal injuries are the least of your concern.
Really, why? 4 litres can be lost into the cavity, there's many major blood vessels/organs there.
>Broken ribs? Fair enough, they suck, but much less life-endangering than
>a shattered skull. Even pneumothorax / sucking chest wound / whatever you
>want to call it, can be handled if you know what you're doing.
True, 3 sided bandage blah blah blah. But what if the pneumothorax tensions?
Unless you can decompress, and I don't know anybody who carries the equipment to do this in there first aid kit at the crag. Tension pneumothorax is a major life threatening injury which kills quickly with, at times, no obvious (unless you know what to look for) external signs.
All I said is that I wont to see the evidence, not speculation. I have already twice stated my view on helmet use.


vwills

7-Jun-2007
4:17:30 PM

The number of medical experts on this forum makes me laugh. Helmets reduce the number and severity of head injuries after motor bike accidents, bicycle accidents and probably skiing accidents. They definitely do protect your head from rockfall and some types of falls. This is self evident. Parachutes save lives when jumping out of an aeroplane, but there isnt any proof to confirm that either.

But back to original thread. Ive flipped upside down twice. Once was my first lead fall, I was used to a toprope keeping you upright and had no idea of what a lead fall was going to do. Pulled up cms above the ground by careful belayer. Second was during heel hooking in a scoop and trying to rock over- leg stayed behind for a moment. Hit the back of my head on the rock after a fair swing and wished I was wearing a helmet.

I don't wear a helmet often enough, but always in an alpine or ice setting, usually trad, usually new crags especially when belaying, and usually when I see a heel hook move!


shamus

7-Jun-2007
4:32:45 PM

Isn't selective deafness / ignorance a wonderful thing... Yes, hitting things hurts. A bloody lot. The point I was trying to make however was that injuries to the abdomen are less likely TO OCCUR than to the limbs and head. Pressure on the brain IS the issue with head injuries! Hooray, you're not as silly as you otherwise let on at times. That pressure is what causes the rapid decline in patients condition. Pressure from the bleeding is less likely to occur if the head was previously protected, eg a helmet...

>Same forces involved
Yes and no. Spear straight into the ground, its all bad news. Hence you protect the parts of climbs with a risk of ground or ledge fall to the best of your ability. Re: the point of this thread - get caught by the rope to some degree, get flung upside down, and have flailing bits of you start flapping into the cliff? No, not the same forces at all.

Yep, you can get major bleeds from injuries to any part of your body, and first aid is only able to limit the effects in some cases. 2 litres in the leg. Know what you're up against, provide a pressure bandage, and thank god for the bodies ability to compensate, raise blood pressure. That can protect you for an hour or more, depending on other issues. Time to make it to a hospital, better medical facilities etc. You don't have that time, or those opportunities with head injuries. Same system that will protect vital functions in a situation of general blood loss will accelerate death if you have haemorrhage in/on the brain. Two reasons you die - heart stops or brain stops. Can protect one of those organs. Why not if you have the choice?


gordoste

7-Jun-2007
4:47:06 PM

On 7/06/2007 vwills wrote:
>Parachutes save lives when jumping out of an aeroplane, but there isnt any proof to
>confirm that either.

Reminds me of this classic piece.

tastybigmac

7-Jun-2007
4:48:48 PM

you should wear bo pads aswell. they protect vital parts of the body too. how can you pick up beer and
drink it if you can't bend your arms?


Macciza

7-Jun-2007
5:03:48 PM

On 7/06/2007 TonyB wrote:

> Can anyone give any advice from experience please ?

Yes - you might hit your head climbing - Statistically, unlikely - more likely to get stung by a bee . . .
And remember that wearing a helmet does not eliminate chance of injury ie recent Obituary accident.

Be aware and make your own decision - don't just listen to to doomsayers and their simplistic rules re
rope positioning - sometimes the rope should be between your legs to avoid possibilty of flipping.
Making sure there is enough slack in your system, instead of keeping everything too tight as most
gym-bred climbers tend to do will increase general safety as well by avoiding harsh pendulum falls

I wear a helmet when aiding because of the increased risk of head injury when bounce testing but do
not wear one when free climbing except occasionally on chossy multipitch stuff

Finally - the 'helmet brigade' seem to cast more aspersions on the 'non-helmeted' as far as I can see.
Sure I sometimes have a giggle at the 'helmet-heads' but more often I find myself aghast at so many
other safety issues with their climbing that the helmet issue is inconsequential.

A far more important factor would be to know about self-rescue and have the gear on you always
because the helmet ain't much help for rescue - I'll take prussics etc over a helmet anyday

prb

7-Jun-2007
5:03:48 PM

cobbler attributed surviving his head-first fall on Anzac Day to wearing a helmet. Knowing how far he fell, and what he fell on, I think he's right. I don't always wear a helmet, but they can be very useful when you need one.

http://www.chockstone.org/Forum/Forum.asp?Action=DisplayTopic&ForumID=5&MessageID=2891&Replies=13&PagePos=0&Sort=#newpost

Snowball

7-Jun-2007
5:47:15 PM

shamus, I was trying to be object with your post and point out areas which you were not correct, if you would like to reply with insults thats fine.

You obviously have very little understanding of the mechanisms of injury involved with sudden decelleration accidents.

As for a pressure bandage on a closed fratured femur to stem the haemorrhage from a major ruptured blood vessel, not a chance. Realignment, immobilise and surgical intervention. The body will not compensate for the loss of 2/3 of circulating volume, and blood pressure is a poor indicator of blood loss status.


Sabu

7-Jun-2007
6:15:02 PM

i don't quite understand how you can compare a car crash to a fall. Wouldn't the forces on various regions be completely different?


red

7-Jun-2007
6:27:55 PM

At least in car crashes you tend to see a pattern of injury depending on the impact and the bodies reaction too that impact, ie - frontal impact tends to either throw driver up and into steering wheel resulting in headstrike (windscreen/dash/wheel) chest injuries and pelvic injuries OR "under injuries" where the body slides under the steering wheel resulting in pelvis and lower leg injuries as well as chest injuries to the steering wheel. Different impacts present with different injury patterns. Climbing injuries tend to be more random in nature as the uncontrolled environment will cause the climber to impact various parts of the body with immoveable objects. I suspose the only real pattern of injury that climber are notorious for are falling onto their feet and transferring loads up the spinal column causing compression injuries to the sacral/ lumbar area of the spine (as well as the broken ankles).. So

1 Climb safe
2. Wear a helmet

Cheers

tastybigmac

7-Jun-2007
7:04:42 PM

i thought you studied vet shamus?

kieranl

7-Jun-2007
8:21:06 PM

Helmets are really a public health issue. There's no disputing that if you hit you head too hard then you will get a head injury. It's just that most people think it isn't going to happen to them. And they're right. Most climbers don't suffer serious head injuries.
To me the aim is to get people to play the weak law of large numbers. If enough people wear helmets then the probability will increase that a climber is wearing a helmet when they have a serious head impact. It's a bit like immunisation, the idea is to create a big enough pool of people who are immunised.
So it's not personal, it's just a numbers game.
Helmets aren't a panacea. I have been involved in the rescue of a person with a severe head injury despite a helmet after a fall of less than 5 metres but I would guess they would have been dead without it.
You should also not underestimate how much damage even a mild head impact can cause. I have known people who have had only a mild head injury and no clinically significant diagnosis to take up to eighteen months to recover, sometimes having to leave work. Doctors can be worse than useless with these people because they show nothing on scan. I had one friend call me up in distress one day because their neurologist was basically calling them a wanker. I just told them "that's bullsh*t. You've got a head injury, that's why you fall over when you shut your eyes". My friend recovered in 12-18 months but had to change jobs and lifestyle (doctors think you're a wanker so no more sick leave).
Enough ranting. Disclaimer - I have been on the pointy end of rockfall penetrating my helmet into the crown of my skull.

rod

7-Jun-2007
9:52:38 PM

Yes you can flip.

1. Wear a helmet
2. Be aware of the rope

If you want a good take of a world class climber's experience of it watch Dave McLeod in E11 and note the before/after stance on helmets following the flip event.

I changed to the Meteor III last year and am conscious that I wear a helmet whenever I'm climbing now simply because I no longer suffer from overheating, that certainly was not the case prior to the upgrade.


Zebedee

7-Jun-2007
10:43:37 PM

If flipping is a recurring problem you can wear a chest harness as a redirect. Basically a maillon joins the two loops of the chest harness and the rope runs through it. Good if you've got sports climbers’ legs and sports climbers’ upper body. Or if your like me and have a HUGE head (like a medecine ball) on a spring and you're 80% above the waist and 20% below. But even the chest harness isn't going to stop you flipping but only right you after a while so this only increases you safety if you wear a helmet, watch your feet and the rope, and always tell your mother where you’re going and when you’ll be back. Mr ambulance should stay away though sometimes he comes just to see how clean those underpants are.

There are 61 messages in this topic.