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Should you put climbs up for others?

gsharrock

2-Apr-2007
8:40:19 PM

I dont see the question of putting routes up for others as the most important issue - the main issue is should we put routes up at all.

The climbing community might like to ask the question: "should we continue breaking the law by bolting routes in national parks". This seems to me to be both a legal and ethical question that is much more important now than 10 years ago. I for one have a growing unease about the scale of the impact of new routes and bolting in our national parks.


muki

2-Apr-2007
8:57:58 PM

You asked if the climbing community might like to ask the Question:
so here goes, hope I get a response ?
How many routes have you illegally bolted in national parks so far glenn ?
How many routes have you climbed in national parks that are illegal ?
how many people do you know who illegally bolt national park cliffs ?
How many people do you know that climb illegally bolted NP cliffs ?
whatever the answers might be I have a feeling that there are bigger issues than this that could be
addressed by climbers as a "community"

simey

2-Apr-2007
9:00:19 PM

On 2/04/2007 gsharrock wrote:
>I dont see the question of putting routes up for others as the most important issue - the main issue is should we put routes up at all.

>The climbing community might like to ask the question: "should we continue breaking the law by bolting routes in national parks". This seems to me to be both a legal and ethical question that is much more important now than 10 years ago. I for one have a growing unease about the scale of the impact of new routes and bolting in our national parks.

Yep, real good point. We have a lot of climbs at our disposal now. Just how many do we need? Are there climbers out who have run out of climbs to do?

There are a lot of cliffs being developed that are pretty average in quality and which are an eyesore to other park users. There are also a lot of routes being established that detract from neighbouring climbs. Many new routes established nowadays were eyed by earlier earlier generations who deliberately chose not to do them because of these factors. Ego seems to override good judgement with regard a lot of new routes being established nowadays.

simey

2-Apr-2007
9:13:55 PM

On 2/04/2007 One Day Hero wrote:
>Rather than airing your dry wit and rational arguements as a participant in the debate, it might be more fun if you referee a WWF style smackdown between the Monty and Macca.

Great idea, but I would rather all members of the debate get to participate in the WWF style smackdown. However given that my team mates are Kim Carrigan and Louise Shepherd, we might not win quite as convincingly. Nevertherless I'm sure Louise can take out Adrian Lang given that he is still recovering from knee surgery.

As for a referee, I think you are the man Damien, or even better you should be commentator.

gsharrock

2-Apr-2007
10:13:59 PM

I agree with your sentiments Simon. I cant imagine how the casual weekend climber would ever need the number of climbs now in existance (Seems to me that many people dont climb much after 30 - kids, work, injuries etc).

For me personnally there is an ethical issue regarding breaking the law which wasnt so prevalent in the early 90's as significantly fewer bolts were being placed and in my experience it was generally overlooked by NP's as the impact was relatively small. The rate of development seems to have increased substantially over the last few years, and we cant deny that its an illegal activity, regardless of past actions.

The reason I bring up this question is I know that some people that regret bolting rock in national parks - even if it only amounts to 11 bolts, 7 of which have been removed :-)


Macciza

2-Apr-2007
10:54:46 PM

Hey Simey
Need any more rope . . . :-}


Phil Box

3-Apr-2007
7:46:21 AM

Glenn, mate, you've put in far more than 11 bolts. Wouldn't the better debate be, how do we get the law changed.


tnd

3-Apr-2007
8:50:15 AM

Some national parks allow the bolting of new routes.

And why should all the old hands have had a chance to be first to climb something, but not people who come into climbing now? Being first to actually lead something (especially ground up onsight, but it still applies to a rap-bolted route), is a completely different feeling to climbing someone else's route.

Mind you, I do agree that route developers should carefully consider whether a potential new line is going to be an eyesore or an irrelevance. It can be hard to resist the temptation to bolt something new just for the sake of it...

Ronny

3-Apr-2007
12:16:05 PM

On 3/04/2007 tnd wrote:
>Some national parks allow the bolting of new routes.
>
>And why should all the old hands have had a chance to be first to climb
>something, but not people who come into climbing now? Being first to actually
>lead something (especially ground up onsight, but it still applies to a
>rap-bolted route), is a completely different feeling to climbing someone
>else's route.
>
>Mind you, I do agree that route developers should carefully consider whether
>a potential new line is going to be an eyesore or an irrelevance. It can
>be hard to resist the temptation to bolt something new just for the sake
>of it...

Yep not all national parks don't allow bolting, and not all new routes are in national parks.

The thing about carefully considering bolting lines is that often its pretty young inexperienced climbers doing it. I don't think its necessarily ego, just that having spied an unclimbed line they don't have the maturity to really think through whether its a worthwhile addition or not. This obviously doesn't go for everyone, but I can think of a couple of lines at Moonarie that i bolted 6-7 years ago that if I saw now I probably wouldn't bolt. The lines were fun climbing, and have seen some repeats, but I'm not sure how much they really add to the place, and the bolts are ugly.


Macciza

3-Apr-2007
12:37:09 PM

>And why should all the old hands have had a chance to be first to climb something, but not people who
>come into climbing now?

Pretty simple really . . . Umm, because they were there first! . . . It just kinda happens like that.
Bit of a bummer really - do you suppose they were self-centred bastards with no thought of others?-}
Go exploring - there are still plenty of cliffs - just most of the nearby climbs have been found.
Or ask Simey - surely he has some spare's he left around for others to climb


BundyBear

3-Apr-2007
1:29:05 PM

On 3/04/2007 Macciza wrote:
>Go exploring - there are still plenty of cliffs - just most of the nearby
>climbs have been found.

Thats correct, there is masses of unclimbed rock, that is not in National Park. Currently developing a new crag within 2 hours of Sydney that has unlimited virgin rock on both sides of a valley. See link ..

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bundybear/425905361/

or

http://www.flickr.com/photos/hawk_man/426442675/

Paul

3-Apr-2007
3:49:00 PM

If you are not putting climbs up for other people, then dont bother telling anyone of your first ascents. There are so many terible climbs out there which seem to have been put up by some climbers who want their name left as their legacy on the rock. wanting your name plastered all over the rock for no good reason almost seems similar to grafite.

When you get that sense of euphoria thinking that you have done a first ascent, if the climb is not that great why not let someone else have that feeling.


wallwombat

3-Apr-2007
4:06:37 PM

Anything I have put up is only likely to be found by bushwalkers who have got hopellessly lost, so the style don't make much of a difference.

maadness

4-Apr-2007
11:11:12 AM

>And why should all the old hands have had a chance to be first to climb
>something, but not people who come into climbing now? Being first to actually
>lead something (especially ground up onsight, but it still applies to a
>rap-bolted route), is a completely different feeling to climbing someone
>else's route.

If you throw away all your guide books , then all the lines that you want to do can be first ascents ! well the ones with out the bolts anyway.
Also if i spy a great line tht i havent done before, i dont really give a shit if its beeen done before, i just get onto it and i reckon i get as much enjoyment as the first ascentist, especially if its in an area away from the crowds


muki

18-Apr-2007
11:43:22 AM

I've just put up a new route in the organ pipes at Araps it's a climb for the grade 18 roof climbers to
have a go on, and will be a great climb for those who want to try and improve footwork through an
overhang.
I did this ground up onsight but think that if I were pushing the 18 grade then I would want more from
the protection! as it only has small RP's leading to the roof section and then you would have to pull
into the first moves on the roof to get a look at where to place a cam (that can be pumpy) so have
decided to place a bolt so that future climbers can get the confidence needed to give the roof a real
shot, and not be scetching on how far down the RP's are, will probably put in a rap station to reduce
the traffic that would otherwise be put onto the Tannin and Hornpiece rap stations, this will be a one or
two star climb with these additions and a bold climb without them, as there are plenty of bold routes at
the mount I have decided to give this one back to the masses as safe and very fun climbing instead,
Its called "Gummy bears are go" 30m grd18 and its the climb two meters right of Dirge, up the right
arete of the small buttress on small wires then diagonaly left through the roof (fixed hanger) then
headwall, to a rap station.
Hope you enjoy.


mousey

18-Apr-2007
11:53:00 AM

well thats your choice, im not going to say whether its right or wrong, and if i repeat the route ill probably clip the bolt. but i personally think that people should have to step up if they want to get up...


tnd

18-Apr-2007
12:57:53 PM

On 18/04/2007 bomber pro wrote:
>as
>there are plenty of bold routes at
>the mount I have decided to give this one back to the masses as safe and
>very fun climbing instead,

Oh no bomber, macca will have a cow when he reads that.


mousey

18-Apr-2007
1:36:58 PM

http://www.chockstone.org/Forum/Forum.asp?Action=DisplayTopic&ForumID=1&MessageID=6413&PagePos=0&Sort=Replies&Replies=329&MsgPagePos=120


IdratherbeclimbingM9

18-Apr-2007
2:14:48 PM

Indeed; ... a grand romp down memory lane.


muki

18-Apr-2007
2:48:50 PM

On 18/04/2007 mousey wrote:
>think that people should have to step up if they want to get up...

Small steps might be a way to stay alive just a bit longer josh,
I'm not advocating that those pushing the grade of 18 try to ground up onsight a climb that has RP's as
the only gear just before punching out the roof moves!
That would be giant leaps, a small step might be to do the climb with the bolt and then if they feel
strong and very confident, maybe after they consolidate the grade by doing a whole bunch of 18's then
at some later point in time (after taking more small steps) they can lead it again and not clip the bolt, if
thats what they want to do?

>if i repeat the route ill probably clip the bolt.

that sounds wise Josh.

I have come to this decision after talking it over with several other climbers and we all feel that
because it's in the Organ Pipes (a recognised beginer area) that it be a climb for those that would do it
as one of their first 18's and not a route that could be done if you were comfy in the mid twentys.
so often I hear people complaining that the climb they are attempting was obviously put up by a
person climbing much harder than the grade of the climb, because it has very minimal pro, I'm just
trying to put up a good climb, by that I mean a safe climb! one I would've been happy to attempt when
I was trying to onsight 18 as my outer limit! when a fall might, and was quite possibly on the cards.
this way if they do fall at the roof, they won't ripp the RP's and die, but be held by the bolt and live.
Thats my choice Josh, as you pointed out!

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