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Open Projects ??


HM33

30-Sep-2003
12:56:29 PM

there is no set time but climbers generally respect the project status and don't try routes unless they are given permision

steve


..::- Chris -::..

30-Sep-2003
1:13:41 PM

Kent: My opinion is made up to the point of a climber having no right to keep a project for life, I believe there should be a reasonable time limit. The post is to gather different opinions not slag each other off....

but in reply to your very witty comment, you obviously don't know me very well Kent, cause I'd do all that in around 30 mins ; )

joemor

30-Sep-2003
1:52:06 PM

i think the main thing here is that all it takes is to ask before you try it...

if the project is abandoned your then able to climb it, if not then theres thousands of other routes in the gramps allone to keep u busy on, not to mention the amount of unclimbed rock.


nmonteith

30-Sep-2003
2:24:28 PM

What projects are you talking about Chris??


..::- Chris -::..

30-Sep-2003
2:28:38 PM

Joemor: Agreed....

Ok I'm closing this post officially, I will concede that it is up to the person who climbed the route first to either finish it as a project or make it open, however there are plenty of flaws in this which will be exposed when the Grampians becomes a much more developed area and new routes aren't so easy to come by.

Until then, a string on a bolt means stay off regardless of spider webs, moss and chalk.

Kent: This also should apply to screwing someone's bird, and pissing on their car.......
Be sure to wait until it becomes an open project, then go for the easy onsight. ; )


nmonteith

30-Sep-2003
2:46:12 PM

Maybe in 50 years there won't be many new routes to do in the Grampians... there is still huge areas that are almost untouched. Many of them are only 10-20 minutes from the road. The next clibming generation might have to worry about saturation point but not ours.


..::- Chris -::..

30-Sep-2003
2:54:59 PM

There are a few here and there, which i know the people who have put them up, are keeping them for a "rainy day" people who don't even live in this state.....and perhaps visit for around 3-4 weeks per year with their petrol drill and quick draws, the forum post was not about exposing those routes at all, just as I have said to them if your not going to attempt something at least once every 6-8 weeks, you can't attempt a project once a year for 6 years... well my opinion, anyway this post has generated some bad vibes, which is not my intention at all, so I'm finished talking about it....

On a Sub Note, Neil in no way did i ever or do i ever consider you in the category of a person who hordes routes, I have a great deal of respect for you and the routes you have completed not to mention all the excellent work you volunteer your time for (rebolting etc etc). you are a pillar of the climbing community and if I have in any way offended you I apologize. I suppose i was just hoping to get some sort of a system started , but there are far to many variables to this discussion, and seeing how I'm not a person that bolts climbs (although i am interested in getting into it!!!) it is unfair for me to argue these points.

So until next time Peace Y


Donut King

30-Sep-2003
2:57:53 PM

Well hasnt this been a busy place since last night.

My comments were intended to be on the provacative side (duh!)

he facts still remain, equipping a route (trad or sport) does not give you a monopply over it for an "unlimited" time.

We all would have our own definition of "reasonable" time to do a route.
my PERSNONAL opinion is that the time limit to do a new route should be finite.
as this becomes an ethical issue then it will never be able to please all the people

I do not condone, practice or support the notion of "stealing" a route (or root!).

I know that equipping a route takes time/money etc etc thank you to those that pointed it out too me, but i think perhaps the point has been missed.

you equip/prepare the route because YOU want to, you bring your skill/effort/time, but this is not a case of IF i equip the route THEN the route is mine...period.

you really rely on the "good-nature" of other climbers.

By using some of the reasoning in this tread i could go grid bolt a whole section of cliff, hang bits of tat of the bolts and call it my own!!! fantastic! if only they made a 4-stroke drill

most of my stroking though has been on this thread!!!!

love to you all

dk

Dalai

30-Sep-2003
3:14:08 PM

Chris,

I don't think people have taken offence at your topic, it has raised a few interesting points - especially how can you define a project for a trad route you may have invested time in (if you tried fixing a note to a wire I am pretty certain someone would quickly claim it as booty).

Ramifications with stealing projects as I see it.
-means the person who is preparing the climbs will cease. This is bad as the number of people doing the hard work is few already.
-means that whole cliffs being developed will remain secret longer for fear of people stealing routes.

Length of 'ownership'
- can't give a set figure as many factors will come into play. Injuries, etc. As I said earlier it's not too hard especially in this day and age to find how the person is and raise the issue with them. You will probably find they will be quite reasonable if asked.

It's all just a matter of respect.


nmonteith

30-Sep-2003
3:16:16 PM

no offence taken guys! - i love ranting about topics that interst me rather than doing work!


..::- Chris -::..

30-Sep-2003
3:41:21 PM

No Worries Neil, just making sure, sometimes text reads many different ways, not always the way you intend (I have a number of ex-girlfriends who can prove this!!) hehehe

Talking climbing beats work anyday.... I like to think of chockstone as the "Electronic camp-fire" ....... Where climbers sit around drinking tea or beer and talk about climbing (except that it's behind a computer screen) pines=internet ??
(Though I've found, roasting marshmellows becomes a little akward and messy, but the good thing is, no one complains about my guitar playing..... hehe)

It's all good.
Chris. : )


Mike

30-Sep-2003
4:02:56 PM

I'm hesitant to say anything here, since I know nothing of new routing beyond watching others prep and ascend theirs, but still finding this topic interesting, so... Can I ask is the route preparer likely to take offense if someone quietly took a quick run up their new line when no one was looking, purely for the pleasure of it, but never claimed the FA? Not that I've done that, at least, not to my knowledge, but my point is, if the route preparer is mainly concerned with the coverted FA, name in the guide, and all that, and the average punter simply wants to muck about on whatever line looks most accessible and fun, well do the two have to be mutually exclusive? I mean we're not talking the FA of Everest here. What if they simply didn't touch the last hold, but let their hand brush the air above it instead, would that satisfy ethics, and leave the FA unstolen?

As I understand it, a tagged (development in progress) route might be dangerous to climb (glue drying, bolts untested, loose rock, etc). When I see a tag the first thing I think about is steering well clear of it, not just to avoid any ethical dilema but also to avoid injury. Not that I'm likely to get up anything worth being anyones project anyway, so for me the point is basically moot.

Three cheers for all first ascensionists by the way. Much appreciate the resources contributed and the zeal required. According to thecrag.com we have nearly 10,000 routes established in Victoria. Even if heaps of these are not worth scaling, there should be plenty to keep us all busy well into the grave without fighting over new ones. I don't think I know anyone who would knowingly "steal" an FA. I mean why exactly? Would be a pretty hollow victory. But if the ancient tagged route is the only thing left at the crag that you haven't done, and you're just bored or something, well, no one is going to know if you don't send in an FA report, and it's not like the rock actually belongs to anyone one of us, so I guess I can't quite see the harm in a quiet, unclaimed pseudo-ascent.


vwills

30-Sep-2003
4:55:23 PM

I've only started bolting projects this year with my cousin (he has the drill). We would get far more climbing done on existing routes but there is something gratifying about discovering a crag, spying a nice line, cleaning it, bolting it if necessary and then climbing it. It takes time, money and effort. We climb each others projects but not "cleanly" and don't mind if other people climb ours as long as they dog it (so I don't really see the point). A project is declared open when I know I've given it my best shot. I don't think there should be an abitrary time in which to do this. Most people have some insight.
If I found someone had climbed my unopened project and claimed the FFA it would be a castratable offence. So beware....


nmonteith

30-Sep-2003
8:03:12 PM

Another thing to think about is the possiblity of vital loose holds that might need to be glued re-enforced before people attempt the climb. A bumbling idiot attempting the unclimbed route could potentially ruin it for others in the future.

kieranl

30-Sep-2003
9:33:43 PM

If someone ripped off a glue reinforced hold then I would consider that a plus. The hold is going to rip of at some stage so why not get it out of the way at the outset.


nmonteith

30-Sep-2003
9:46:11 PM

Point taken on pristine featured Grampians sandstone - but on poxy granite routes the one vital flake might be the only hold in 3m!

kieranl

30-Sep-2003
9:59:35 PM

My point exactly. The climb is ephemeral. The hold will eventually disappear and so the climb. Why prolong the agony?
I know Black Hill devotees will weep but they're only climbs; it's not like they matter ;)


Donut King

30-Sep-2003
10:01:32 PM

On 30/09/2003 nmonteith wrote:
>no offence taken guys! - i love ranting about topics that interst me rather
>than doing work!

amen to that brother!!!


Donut King

30-Sep-2003
10:05:04 PM

gluing holds!!!!

perhaps a diff topic, but if the hold rips of or is lose then that is part iof the climb and it should NOT be artificially enhanced.

if a hold rips of and the grade changes, then so be it

only my 2c


..::- Chris -::..

1-Oct-2003
8:03:05 AM

I'll start a new topic.....

There are 68 messages in this topic.