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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 2 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 30
Author
New anchors at Araps - What do you reckon?

ajfclark
10/01/2017
8:09:55 AM
On 9/01/2017 simey wrote:
>I haven't used the LWF rap descent, but I can't imagine that I will. Walking
>down Pharos Gully is pretty convenient in comparison. I usually walk down
>if I climb on the RWF too. It is faster and saves taking two ropes.

I did yesterday just to see what it's like.

Unless @egosan's ropes have shrunk a fair bit, the first abseil is a bit long perhaps? My 82kg + the rack barely got level with the bolts on stretch on a pair of 50m 7.9mm ropes. Threading the ropes at the top with the knot on the right they pulled fine for us, but I could see a lot of potential for things to go wrong. There's loads of bushes, loose rock, blocks, etc.

Speaking on things going wrong, there was a bit of an epic when he assumed he could get to the ground from there and ended up on a 10cm wide ledge 15m off the deck...

After getting him to the ground on a single 7.9mm rope, I rapped to the bolted belay on Hot Flap, way, way left (facing the cliff), pulled again, and then to the ground with still not oodles of rope left.

So 3 raps vs a quick walk down Pharos Gully. Even without the extra stuffing around, I think the walk is faster. With 60m ropes things might improve, but I'm still not sure you'll get to the ground from the Siren/Hot Flap anchor.
kieranl
10/01/2017
9:10:43 AM
On 9/01/2017 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>On 9/01/2017 gordoste wrote:
>> at Araps anchors should only be placed for erosion prevention
>>or where other descent options are too dangerous.
>
>Agreed
>
>So a rap station that services an area. Not rap stations that service
>routes.
Good in principle, not always feasible. Morfydd,Kinkaid area for example.

>
>and 1 rap station for the area, not three (or 4, or 5);
Some areas are so heavily used that the single rap station becomes a choke point and risk (eg Preludes Wall)

> and that rap station
>shouldn't place the fall line over another route that someone might be
>on.
In practice very difficult to achieve. If you look around there's not that many raps at Arapiles that meet this brief. One of the ironies is that putting a rap station above a piece of rock that people rarely climb can change that situation (eg Skylark)

>
>Plus rap stations, not anchors - as they're different things.
>
>
Agreed

These are all things to keep in mind when planning a rap point but as rigid rules they often don't work.

Eduardo Slabofvic
10/01/2017
9:53:09 AM
On 10/01/2017 kieranl wrote:
>On 9/01/2017 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>>On 9/01/2017 gordoste wrote:
>>> at Araps anchors should only be placed for erosion prevention
>>>or where other descent options are too dangerous.
>>
>>Agreed
>>
>>So a rap station that services an area. Not rap stations that service
>>routes.
>Good in principle, not always feasible. Morfydd,Kinkaid area for example.

That would be one of the places that I would use as an example of what not to do. There are 5 anchors within spitting distance of each other. Even given that traffic down the Alis descent, 5 is way over the top.

Plus, there are way more anchors, lower offs and rap stations than you mention in your earlier post. Way way way more.

E.g. (not the definitive list) 2 on top of Castle Crag. 2 on top of Coming on chris. Why do we need two in these locations? There's 4 in the touchstone area. there's plenty more, and there'll never be less (except if you count the ones that used to be on top of Kachoong which got chopped).
>
>>
>>and 1 rap station for the area, not three (or 4, or 5);
>Some areas are so heavily used that the single rap station becomes a choke
>point and risk (eg Preludes Wall)
>
>> and that rap station
>>shouldn't place the fall line over another route that someone might be
>>on.
>In practice very difficult to achieve. If you look around there's not
>that many raps at Arapiles that meet this brief. One of the ironies is
>that putting a rap station above a piece of rock that people rarely climb
>can change that situation (eg Skylark)

No so difficult to achieve. Routes aren't that close together. Step left 2m. The rap off of the top of Preludes wall could have been moved 2m left and avoided being over the top of that route and still been easy to access.


>
>>
>>Plus rap stations, not anchors - as they're different things.
>>
>>
>Agreed
Agreed The new ones on the back side of Mitre aren't even equalised. and those ones on the top of Dunes are crap

>
>These are all things to keep in mind when planning a rap point but as
>rigid rules they often don't work.
Wendy
10/01/2017
12:19:24 PM
On 10/01/2017 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:

>
>That would be one of the places that I would use as an example of what
>not to do. There are 5 anchors within spitting distance of each other.
> Even given that traffic down the Alis descent, 5 is way over the top.

Sorry Ed, I'm going to horrify you a bit more. There's actually about 10 between Alis and Firedance. Although I think only maybe 3 of them
> are overkill.

>Plus, there are way more anchors, lower offs and rap stations than you
>mention in your earlier post. Way way way more.
>
>E.g. (not the definitive list) 2 on top of Castle Crag.
That's about 5 now. I'd probably only really object to 1 of them.


2 on top of Coming
>on chris. Why do we need two in these locations?

This one is pretty special. I think Gordy might be responsible. Can I be a fly on the
wall when you go tell him what you think of it?


>>Some areas are so heavily used that the single rap station becomes a
>choke
>>point and risk (eg Preludes Wall)
>>
>>> and that rap station
>>>shouldn't place the fall line over another route that someone might
>be
>>>on.
>>In practice very difficult to achieve. If you look around there's not
>>that many raps at Arapiles that meet this brief. One of the ironies is
>>that putting a rap station above a piece of rock that people rarely climb
>>can change that situation (eg Skylark)
>
>No so difficult to achieve. Routes aren't that close together. Step
>left 2m. The rap off of the top of Preludes wall could have been moved
>2m left and avoided being over the top of that route and still been easy
>to access.

I"m not sure which came first, the route or the rap. I'm also not sure why it wasn't put over where the old chain was.
>
>
>>
>>>
>>>Plus rap stations, not anchors - as they're different things.

I suspect that one reason for the proliferation of anchors is the difference in expectations of an anchor. A lot of the original anchors were placed as belay then rap stations. Or just placed where the old sling stations were. And in all honesty, plenty of them were pretty crap. That one on top of Sandpiper is a classic example. It's in a great place to sit on the ledge but pretty crap for rapping and really crap for lowering. Loads of drag over the edge and it usually pulls into the crack. An anchor up and right of the top of the crack would run freely. It's only used for Sandpiper and I don't see why a top belay anchor is preferable to a lowerable one there.

Eduardo Slabofvic
10/01/2017
1:19:14 PM
On 10/01/2017 Wendy wrote:
>>Sorry Ed, I'm going to horrify you a bit more. There's actually about
>10 between Alis and Firedance. Although I think only maybe 3 of them
>> are overkill.

If there's 10, then I think 8 are over kill.

>
>>Plus, there are way more anchors, lower offs and rap stations than you
>>mention in your earlier post. Way way way more.
>>
>>E.g. (not the definitive list) 2 on top of Castle Crag.
>That's about 5 now. I'd probably only really object to 1 of them.

There's 5!? Then I object to 4 of them.

>
>
> 2 on top of Coming
>>on chris. Why do we need two in these locations?
>
>This one is pretty special. I think Gordy might be responsible. Can I
>be a fly on the
>wall when you go tell him what you think of it?

I already have, plus I chopped one of his other anchors that I didn't like (it wasn't bolted though. I gave it back to him).

>
>
>>>Some areas are so heavily used that the single rap station becomes a
>>choke
>>>point and risk (eg Preludes Wall)
>>>
>>>> and that rap station
>>>>shouldn't place the fall line over another route that someone might
>>be
>>>>on.
>>>In practice very difficult to achieve. If you look around there's not
>>>that many raps at Arapiles that meet this brief. One of the ironies
>is
>>>that putting a rap station above a piece of rock that people rarely
>climb
>>>can change that situation (eg Skylark)
>>
>>No so difficult to achieve. Routes aren't that close together. Step
>>left 2m. The rap off of the top of Preludes wall could have been moved
>>2m left and avoided being over the top of that route and still been easy
>>to access.
>
>I"m not sure which came first, the route or the rap. I'm also not sure
>why it wasn't put over where the old chain was.

Indeed

kieranl
10/01/2017
2:17:01 PM
Eduardo and I obviously have different perspectives on the Morfydd area.
To me it's not straightforward to move around the top to get to an abseil point some distance away. I really don't want people trundling around on sloping ledges with loose rock sending stuff down on me.
Then there's the base of the wall, it's steep and already eroded. A single abseil point would mean that every time a party does a climb and descends they will be moving from the base of the abseil back to the start of their previous climb. That's a lot of extra traffic and the base of the abseil and the hillside nearby is going to get hammered.
Obviously Eduardo sees it differently and that's just how it goes. We're both right according to how we see it.

Eduardo Slabofvic
10/01/2017
5:58:31 PM
Whereas, I see that more bolts bring more people. More people means more erosion. Making it a harder place to climb puts downward pressure on the number of people who'll climb there.

E.g. not having lower offs means you'll have to sit in the sun belaying - OK, so you don't go there if your not prepared to do that. Go do something else. or be prepared to build your own anchor/lower off and pull it apart when your done, it is a trad climbing area anyway, building anchors is part of the skill set required.

Stugang
10/01/2017
7:25:16 PM
If that's the case if Eduardo "really" cared about the environment then he'd establish himself every day on a banana lounge at the base of the plaque and sun himself wearing his oh so tight favourite speedos.

Number of visitors down and revegetation up almost immediately.

Eduardo Slabofvic
10/01/2017
7:47:53 PM
I dispensed with the speedos long ago

gordoste
11/01/2017
10:54:05 AM
On 9/01/2017 kieranl wrote:
>On 9/01/2017 gordoste wrote:
>>It would be a tragedy if the best beginner trad cliff in the world lost
>>its ability to teach due to overbolting for convenience.
>
>Is that happening? Where?
>
>Hardly the death of trad climbing as we know it.

It's not happening, I'm just saying that we need to prevent it. A lot of anchors have been placed over the last 15 years for good reason, but the number placed over the next 15 should be tiny in comparison.

If we get too many more anchors that are primarily for convenience, it will start to be hard to justify chopping new ones.

 Page 2 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 30
There are 30 messages in this topic.

 

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