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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 4 of 5. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 94
Author
The Eyrie, Mt Boyce retrobolted! Badly...

timfreddo
3-Jan-2017
5:58:16 PM
Thanks all for thoughts and opinions.
It's a pity what sparked the conversations, but on the plus side (a small plus to be honest) it's got the community thinking about where things are headed and some really great information has been revealed in the thread for people to think about.

Perhaps someone can start a poll or similar with re-bolting options, so people can have their say on a clearer format (and one that can be searched easily in the future)

Cheers for the patching advice, was the same stuff I was thinking. Thanks to Maccizza and PThompson for their time and scratched knuckles on the de-bolt. I'll be out there as soon as I can to do the patch job.

Zarb
4-Jan-2017
8:28:55 AM
I like the distinction someone made between beginner climbs and easy climbs. I was climbing at Megalong crag the other day and was doing one of the grade 13 pitches. Gosh it was very run out. Very easy, but very run out. I would have hated to be a grade 13 climber on that. But as an easy climb for me it was made all the more fun by the run out, definitely would have been a real bore if it was bolted with a grade 13 climber in mind.

Back on topic, even being super late to the party, I've done the Eyrie a few times, both in the early stages of my climbing and also recently. I didn't ever really feel it was run out or unsafe either time, so it's nice to see it being restored.

voodoo
4-Jan-2017
9:14:11 AM
Just remember that the opinions you hear here are not necessarily representative of the greater climbing community - you'll get loads of wailing and gnashing of teeth from either extreme, whereas the silent majority either don't care, aren't here or have better things to do (like climbing).

gnaguts
5-Jan-2017
6:02:51 PM
On 4/01/2017 voodoo wrote:
>Just remember that the opinions you hear here are not necessarily representative
>of the greater climbing community - you'll get loads of wailing and gnashing
>of teeth from either extreme, whereas the silent majority either don't
>care, aren't here or have better things to do (like climbing).

Itza pretty good snapshot of opinion though.
The silent turkeys opinion don't count if they don't voice it.

Thanx 4 tha retochop peeps cos it really did get up tha nose of those with opinions.

gordoste
6-Jan-2017
10:56:26 AM
The biggest problem here was consultation after the fact. It would have been easy to ask for opinions beforehand and a clear message would have been given, preventing an unfortunate outcome.

I don't buy the "silent majority" argument - 80% of outdoor climbing is done by 20% of climbers. And climbing ethics is not "one man one vote" either. On this thread you have Neil, Paul T and Mikl all clearly stating the ethics - it's hard to think of people better qualified to do so.

Clear ethical standards are needed so that we don't end up with retrobolting everywhere. I see a parallel at Mt Buffalo where there was until recently a true lack of beginner routes. However, even there, proactive retrobolting by FAs and clear feedback to bolters who made bad judgments have resulted in a sustainable outcome with a couple of real beginner-friendly areas being developed in recent years without compromising existing routes.


voodoo
6-Jan-2017
2:13:17 PM
On 6/01/2017 gordoste wrote:
>I don't buy the "silent majority" argument - 80% of outdoor climbing is done by 20% of climbers.

This site has <8000 accounts of which 70 were active in the last 24 hrs and a mere handful of whom took the time to post on this thread. So if you think that's meaningfully representative of this country's climbing community then well I don't know what to say.
hotgemini
6-Jan-2017
2:19:32 PM
I've got a principle that I apply to a lot of things which works well here.

"Don't tell us what is wrong with the current approach, implement a better one"

So, unless you can provide a better way of measuring the views of the climbing community, I'm not sure what you think you're adding to the discussion.

wallwombat
6-Jan-2017
3:09:55 PM
On 6/01/2017 voodoo wrote:

>This site has <8000 accounts of which 70 were active in the last 24 hrs
>and a mere handful of whom took the time to post on this thread. So if
>you think that's meaningfully representative of this country's climbing
>community then well I don't know what to say.

I came in late and didn't bother registering my thoughts as they would have largely mirrored the comments of others, particularly widewetandslippery.

Duang Daunk
6-Jan-2017
4:02:54 PM
On 6/01/2017 voodoo wrote:
>So if you think that's (this site) meaningfully representative of this country's climbing
>community then well I don't know what to say.

voodoo bro, what better site is representative of this country's climbing, or would you rather see a tick and cross list put up in a gym somewhere?

What's your opinion on the retro matter as you haven't made that clear either?
I strongly think you agree with timfreddo's original action and are now dissing the outcome as it went against you and your Trump style politics because the vote was rigged but just not the way you expected!




timfreddo bro, maybe have a look at older threads on Chocky about past bolting controversies to get informed about the counter arguments to the points you raised in your original post, as I suspect that some of them were neglected to be fleshed out in the sheer outcry against the action you took. There are quite a few examples where debate raged and most points of view were expressed clearly. Ones that come to mind are, mikl retroing Cornerstone Rib in the 'Bungles, simey retroing Dribble at the 'Piles, joe retroing Mackeys at Buffalo, some outdoor rec bloke retroing The Pintle at Buffalo, along with other examples no doubt before my time here.



And for the record, I disagree with the retroing of The Eyrie, and am glad the bolts have been chopped.

I also half choked on my coffee when I read the SRC bro post suggesting consider safety first before chopping, because right up front Macca indicated the situation would be remedied swiftly (repeat swiftly), and the retro kind of smacked of precedent set, so now we debate safety instead of the real issue of dealing with the retro.

dalai
6-Jan-2017
5:09:07 PM
On 6/01/2017 voodoo wrote:
>On 6/01/2017 gordoste wrote:
>>I don't buy the "silent majority" argument - 80% of outdoor climbing
>is done by 20% of climbers.
>
>This site has <8000 accounts of which 70 were active in the last 24 hrs
>and a mere handful of whom took the time to post on this thread. So if
>you think that's meaningfully representative of this country's climbing
>community then well I don't know what to say.

Like wallwombat says, the majority had already voiced my view quite capably too.
hotgemini
7-Jan-2017
9:14:15 AM
On 6/01/2017 dalai wrote:
>On 6/01/2017 voodoo wrote:
>>On 6/01/2017 gordoste wrote:
>>>I don't buy the "silent majority" argument - 80% of outdoor climbing
>>is done by 20% of climbers.
>>
>>This site has <8000 accounts of which 70 were active in the last 24 hrs
>>and a mere handful of whom took the time to post on this thread. So
>if
>>you think that's meaningfully representative of this country's climbing
>>community then well I don't know what to say.
>
>Like wallwombat says, the majority had already voiced my view quite capably
>too.

For the avoidance of any doubt, the majority (opposing the retrobolt) had already effectively voiced my opinion, such that I refrained from doing so.

ajfclark
7-Jan-2017
11:35:26 AM
On 6/01/2017 voodoo wrote:
>On 6/01/2017 gordoste wrote:
>>I don't buy the "silent majority" argument - 80% of outdoor climbing is done by 20% of climbers.
>
>This site has <8000 accounts of which 70 were active in the last 24 hrs and a mere handful of whom took the time to post on this thread. So if you think that's meaningfully representative of this country's climbing community then well I don't know what to say.

To avoid the next fifteen pages of that thread being "Everyone said what I thought so I didn't post, but to avoid any ambiguity here's my opinion", here's a simple poll.
Wendy
8-Jan-2017
7:48:02 AM
On 6/01/2017 voodoo wrote:
>Just remember that the opinions you hear here are not necessarily representative of the greater climbing community - you'll get loads of wailing and gnashing of teeth from either extreme, whereas the silent majority either don't care, aren't here or have better things to do (like climbing).

>On 6/01/2017 gordoste wrote:
>>I don't buy the "silent majority" argument - 80% of outdoor climbing
>is done by 20% of climbers.
>
>This site has <8000 accounts of which 70 were active in the last 24 hrs
>and a mere handful of whom took the time to post on this thread. So if
>you think that's meaningfully representative of this country's climbing
>community then well I don't know what to say.

I'm not sure how else you would inform people. It's on thecrag.com as well, although that has about 5 responses, so I think Chockstone might get a lot more traffic. It's been up here for over a week so probably has a lot more views than 70. It's had more views than it would on the notice board in the Pines I imagine and more contribution to a broader discussion. Or should we go an old fashioned mail out to all current members of any climbing club or gym in the country and wait for responses? You wouldn't get me from that method and I don't imagine I'm alone.

People do just lurk on here without accounts as well and are free to make an account and contribute anytime. Others know it exists and simply can't be bothered using it.

The internet is really the best medium for getting to maximum numbers efficiently these days and if people choose not to engage, that is their choice not to express an opinion in the most used public discussion tool and the cost is their opinion is not going to be considered. Warrick barely ever climbs these days and still knew to and bother to use Chockstone on a topic that mattered to him.

It's not really obscure. And you really do credit Chockstone for being much busier than it is if you think it gets in the way of doing better things ... I'll be out climbing in another 15 minutes time. I'm just multitasking Chockstone and brekky.

rodw
8-Jan-2017
3:27:05 PM
I think Chockstone is a very small vocal minority, and users of other online entities is thecrag, Facebook much the same.

A large majority form various walks of life and ages don't bother with this crap and just climb. So kinda agree with Voodoo in the statement...

>Just remember that the opinions you hear here are not necessarily representative of the greater climbing community - you'll get loads of wailing and gnashing of teeth from either extreme, whereas the silent majority either don't care, aren't here or have better things to do (like climbing).

Sorry if that affects your idea of self importance etc but seriously most people don't give a f&%k and climbing is no different. As in most cases, try and be informed as to your ongoing actions and be prepared to suffer flack no matter what ya do...but no matter what you do some peeps will disagree and maybe take action...but thats climbing as really there is no central thought and rules so conflict is the norm and actions from that is inevitable.

For the record I thought bolting of Eyrie was wrong and wouldn't do it myself..but really don't care that much to so anything about. The fact we have people that do is great, but also the fact we have peeps who want to question the status quo and re bolt old stuff is good too..in the end we end up with a happy status quo that everyone can live with.

I suppose the point I'm trying to make is just because heaps of people agree with you in one forum don't kid yourself that its make you the all seeing and all knowing. People climb for different reasons etc which what make the sport great..yep shit happens you wont agree with but I can guarantee what you do' others won't agree with your thoughts on the matter too..that's climbing. The vilification etc of perceived atrocities not just here and on Facebook, thecrag, I personally think is the issue rather that the act and then discussion of said activities. This issue was resolved , the ongoing attacks and negative commentary had no affect on the issue rather than keeping the silent majority quiet now and into the future. Issue resolved in the positive...move on I say.
martym
8-Jan-2017
3:31:23 PM
On 8/01/2017 Wendy wrote:
>On 6/01/2017 voodoo wrote:
>>This site has <8000 accounts of which 70 were active in the last 24 hrs
>>and a mere handful of whom took the time to post on this thread. So
>I'm not sure how else you would inform people. It's on thecrag.com as
>well, although that has about 5 responses, so I think Chockstone might
>get a lot more traffic. It's been up here for over a week so probably has
>a lot more views than 70. It's had more views than it would on the notice
>board in the Pines I imagine and more contribution to a broader discussion.
>Or should we go an old fashioned mail out to all current members of any
>climbing club or gym in the country and wait for responses? You wouldn't
>get me from that method and I don't imagine I'm alone.
>
>People do just lurk on here without accounts as well and are free to make
>an account and contribute anytime. Others know it exists and simply can't
>be bothered using it.

According to the public facing forum stats this thread has had 5744 views to date; I don't know how many are unique pageviews but enough to say more than 70 people looked? There are 70 replies - at least half repeats, so maybe 25 people contributed?

Macciza
8-Jan-2017
7:38:12 PM
On 4/01/2017 voodoo wrote:
>Just remember that the opinions you hear here are not necessarily representative
>of the greater climbing community - you'll get loads of wailing and gnashing
>of teeth from either extreme, whereas the silent majority either don't
>care, aren't here or have better things to do (like climbing).

Totally irrelevant really, the over-riding principle here is that you don't retrobolt classic trad climbs. Full Stop!
I don't care if 90% of your 'silent majority' think it should be bolted - they are probably gym-bred climbers with very little idea of the greater traditions and ethics involved in actual climbing..
The ethic across most of the worlds climbing communities is that retrobolts get pulled out!

garbie
9-Jan-2017
9:31:40 AM
On 8/01/2017 Macciza wrote:

>- they are probably gym-bred climbers with very little idea of the greater
>traditions and ethics involved in actual climbing..
>The ethic across most of the worlds climbing communities is that retrobolts
>get pulled out!
>

Hey Macca, you have a recurring theme of putting down your so called "gym climbers" or "gym-bred climbers". Pretty much anyone born in the 80's or later would have started climbing in a gym and could be described as gym-bred and as you know many have gone on to do great things on rock. I watched Axel Tritton come up through the junior ranks and I'm really impressed that he and people like him are such well-rounded climbers now, doing big walls, hard trad etc etc.

And amongst us oldies that started before gyms, there's always been ethical debates and so-called atrocities committed. You worked in a gym and enjoy climbing indoors occasionally, how about you live-and-let-live a bit?

If you have any suggestions of how to spread the word about climbing traditions and ethics among those who are just starting out who haven't climbed outdoors yet, let me know, I'd be keen to help out.

Mike/SICG

Climboholic
9-Jan-2017
12:40:10 PM
On 6/01/2017 voodoo wrote:
>On 6/01/2017 gordoste wrote:
>>I don't buy the "silent majority" argument - 80% of outdoor climbing
>is done by 20% of climbers.
>
>This site has <8000 accounts of which 70 were active in the last 24 hrs
>and a mere handful of whom took the time to post on this thread. So if
>you think that's meaningfully representative of this country's climbing
>community then well I don't know what to say.

I call BS! I haven't been active on here for ages, but I made an exception in order to not be counted towards your 'silent majority' who somehow support unilateral retro-bolting.

How are we supposed to gauge the opinion of those who don't speak up? Chockstone is by no means the only form of consultation one should undertake before reto-bolting, but it is the broadest online Australian climbing forum.

The poll currently has 53 in support of chopping versus 2 against (you and the bolter I assume). That's pretty overwhelming! Or are you going to allege Russian hacking?
Wendy
9-Jan-2017
12:46:19 PM
On 8/01/2017 Macciza wrote:
>On 4/01/2017 voodoo wrote:
>>Just remember that the opinions you hear here are not necessarily representative
>>of the greater climbing community - you'll get loads of wailing and gnashing
>>of teeth from either extreme, whereas the silent majority either don't
>>care, aren't here or have better things to do (like climbing).
>
>Totally irrelevant really, the over-riding principle here is that you
>don't retrobolt classic trad climbs. Full Stop!
>I don't care if 90% of your 'silent majority' think it should be bolted
>- they are probably gym-bred climbers with very little idea of the greater
>traditions and ethics involved in actual climbing..
>The ethic across most of the worlds climbing communities is that retrobolts
>get pulled out!
>
I'm not sure you are doing yourself any favours by announcing that your views are the right views and most of the world agree with you even if the silent majority may or may not.

I think the silent by choice abdicate their right to influence decisions. If you don't care enough to say or do anything, well, the decisions will be made by those that do. I don't think climbers in general are silent subalterns.

rodw
9-Jan-2017
1:17:07 PM
On 9/01/2017 Wendy wrote:
>. I don't think climbers in general are silent
>subalterns.

Maybe not but I do think majority dont use this forum and others to express an opinion...I thought Voodoo's comment wasn't about perceive silent majority being pro for the bolting just pointing out Chockstone is not really a representative view of the wider whole.

I know a sh&te ton of climbers and in my estimates less than 10% of them bother with this online banter..and certainly wouldn't assume expressed thoughts on here are the same they may have, or even have any thoughts on the matter at all.

A vocal minority can easily sway an argument (look at US elections for an example) if the whole community does not get a "vote" and push a certain agenda while the silent majority either don't engage in said discussion either through apathy or simply being unaware of the issue at all which is probably the later.

Actions will be performed by a small engaged majority in a sport like ours..which for the most seems to work fine...just like to advise caution in assuming this is what the community wants as a whole and claiming Chockstone is a true indicator for all thoughts regarding climbing just because a small bunch of peeps shout the loudest is a bit naive and simplistic IMHO.








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