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25-May-2011 7:56:45 PM
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It seems to me that in the photos given in http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/CrabBrake.htm,
the carabiners are NOT opposite and opposed, as stated in the text. If they were opposite and opposed, the bigger sides (basket) of the carabiners would be on the same side.
For eg. look at http://opp.uoregon.edu/climbing/topics/anchors.html (section 'Clipping the Rope')
The photos shown in chockstone.org look like option B whereas they should be option D.
I could be wrong... or the carabiners need to be this way for rappeling?
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25-May-2011 9:25:31 PM
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It looks, to me, that the Chocky tech tips carabiners (blue gates in a vertical orientation) are opposite and opposed just like picture 'D' in the uoregon link.
In the Chocky tech tips though it seems to me that the horizontal biners used for braking don't have reversed gates as the text advises. I base my assumption off the marching profile of the biner spines and am happy to be corrected.
I'm a touchy/feeler learning so anytime I see something in a book or online I grab similar gear and try to replicate what I'm looking at. I grabbed 2 spirits and placed them opposite and opposed and they look the same as the pics on Chocky.
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25-May-2011 9:31:16 PM
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On 25/05/2011 Miguel75 wrote:
>It looks, to me, that the Chocky tech tips carabiners (blue gates in a
>vertical orientation) are opposite and opposed just like picture 'D' in
>the uoregon link.
>
Really? it seems to me that if the top biner was rotated 180 it would be same position as the biner underneath.
Oh, and if top roping with setups described on the second link most people would use screw gates.
>In the Chocky tech tips though it seems to me that the horizontal biners
>used for braking don't have reversed gates as the text advises. I base
>my assumption off the marching profile of the biner spines and am happy
>to be corrected.
>
>I'm a touchy/feeler learning so anytime I see something in a book or online
>I grab similar gear and try to replicate what I'm looking at. I grabbed
>2 spirits and placed them opposite and opposed and they look the same as
>the pics on Chocky.
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25-May-2011 9:31:33 PM
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Not opposite and opposed, rotated 180.
Then the horizontals are the same orientation as each other.
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25-May-2011 9:38:35 PM
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I'm no expert, but I'm going to go with, you're technically correct, but it doesn't matter.
The problem with option B is that the biner can rotate so that the gates are in the same position, however in the brake rappel set up they can't rotate so that isn't an issue. As long as the gates are on opposite sides that will suffice. Option D would also work.
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25-May-2011 9:41:24 PM
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I'm also amused that the topic sat dormant for over an hour but in the 15 mins between starting my post and various phone calls, there were three other responses.
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25-May-2011 9:49:08 PM
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On 25/05/2011 pecheur wrote:
>I'm no expert, but I'm going to go with, you're technically correct, but
>it doesn't matter.
>
>The problem with option B is that the biner can rotate so that the gates
>are in the same position, however in the brake rappel set up they can't
>rotate so that isn't an issue. As long as the gates are on opposite sides
>that will suffice. Option D would also work.
Why do you say they can't rotate? What is stopping the krabs from rotating? Granted, if nothing goes wrong everything will be dandy but things don't always go right. If you have to unweight the abseil - say you have to tension over to free a rope end, go too low and hand-over-hand up a little and pull the tail back through the brake then there is slack in the system and krabs will do what krabs will do.
The odds are that the setup won't have a problem most of the time but it would be better if they were opposite and opposed..
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25-May-2011 9:57:07 PM
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I used the cross-krab brake a lot for the first few years that I climbed and have seen a lot of snafus, including putting the brake-bars on with the rope running across the gates instead of the spines. It is better to do it correctly and not assume that things will be right, even though the system has proved remarkably forgiving.
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25-May-2011 10:09:06 PM
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I just went out and set up an anchor and can now, clearly see the difference between the Chocky and uoregon pics. Luckily I've never had to carabiner rappel. Maybe it's because my skills are repelling;)
Here's my anchor with opposed and opposite gates;
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25-May-2011 10:11:45 PM
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On 25/05/2011 Miguel75 wrote:
>I just went out and set up an anchor and can now, clearly see the difference
>between the Chocky and uoregon pics. Luckily I've never had to carabiner
>rappel. Maybe it's because my skills are repelling;)
>
>I'll upload a pic of said anchor shortly just to confirm I'm not completely
>off base.
Hehe, not only do you not read well, you struggle with pictures too? ;)
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25-May-2011 10:18:22 PM
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Life can be a challenge sometimes. Especially when your main talent is speaking (typing) before thinking...
Maybe that's why I climb mostly by myself;)
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25-May-2011 10:21:45 PM
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The biggest problem these days with using a cross-krab brake is that a lot of people will only have wire-gate krabs on their rack. You can use these but they're not ideal.
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25-May-2011 10:27:03 PM
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On 25/05/2011 kieranl wrote:
>Why do you say they can't rotate? What is stopping the krabs from rotating?
>Granted, if nothing goes wrong everything will be dandy but things don't
>always go right. If you have to unweight the abseil - say you have to tension
>over to free a rope end, go too low and hand-over-hand up a little and
>pull the tail back through the brake then there is slack in the system
>and krabs will do what krabs will do.
>The odds are that the setup won't have a problem most of the time but
>it would be better if they were opposite and opposed..
I agree that opposite and opposed is the ideal set up and the chocky pic should probably be amended.
However I do see it as extremely unlikely, experimenting with my spirits I couldn't get my middle biners to drop enough below the outside ones enough to allow them to rotate without applying external force even when using 6 mm prussic cord as the "rope" (to simulate someone with a 7.5 mm rope). With a 10.5 mm rope I doubt it would be possible for the biners to drop enough under any real situation (you'd have to force them hard).
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25-May-2011 10:28:21 PM
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On 25/05/2011 kieranl wrote:
>The biggest problem these days with using a cross-krab brake is that a
>lot of people will only have wire-gate krabs on their rack. You can use
>these but they're not ideal.
Actually this is another conversation I was having the other day, would you rather use a biner brake or an Italian / Munter hitch, and why?
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25-May-2011 10:28:51 PM
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Screw the cross-crab rap. I've got my Dulfersitz skills polished up just in case;)
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25-May-2011 10:36:22 PM
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I like the munter hitch as it only requires one locking biner. And technically a rope too;)
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26-May-2011 9:11:04 AM
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Cross crabs is much easier for rappelling. The munter hitch can lead to some amazing cluster f**ks due to twisting
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26-May-2011 9:46:04 AM
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Remember if you use a wog knot with a non locker: gate to the left for a right handed abseil and gate to the right for a left handed abseil. Use the belay loop for connection as it gives good orientation. If you fail to do this you will get skid marks.
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26-May-2011 4:36:39 PM
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On 26/05/2011 deadbudgy wrote:
>Cross crabs is much easier for rappelling. The munter hitch can lead to
>some amazing cluster f**ks due to twisting
the monster munter is much safer than cross crabs and does not twist the rope at all.
It also has 8 friction surfaces as apposed to 2 friction surfaces of a regular italian hitch, making it superb to control even as a twin person rescue descender in emergencies.
I would consider that cross crabs have far more to get right to make it work ... therefore more could go wrong when mistakes are made using cross crabs.
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26-May-2011 6:00:12 PM
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Munters are great, I'd say I belay with them 35% of the time, a lot more if I forget my gri gri.
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