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Should GriGris be alllowed FOR LEADING in gyms?


garbie

9-Feb-2011
10:10:51 PM

*Edited this* - just talking about leading.

(We have a normal ATC attached to a tie-down strap and a"Slo-go" as the top anchor for top-roping, a set-up that we're happy with.)

Should Gri Gris or other "assisted braking" devices be allowed for leading at your local gym?

We're having an existential moment, going to the core of trad/sport indoor/outdoor debate. A couple of arguments for and against:

For the ban:
1: they are often used badly, not as "recommended", and we can't be going around teaching people the correct technique.
2: staff at the gym have trouble monitoring whether they're threaded correctly/used properly etc.

Against the ban:
1: a lot of climbers use them on weekends, so to ask them to use an ATC or whatever at the gym is asking for trouble, as they are in the habit of using their favourite "assisted braker" and might "forget" they're not using it at the gym.
2: let them use what they want, its their responsibility to use it properly and if they have an accident its their fault.

Mike/SICG


Miguel75

9-Feb-2011
10:26:06 PM

I voted 'let us use what we want!'

Is it an issue to check someone on either of the devices? I reckon once they're checked off it should be up to them to safely use their chosen tool. If you see them use it incorrectly, pull them up, correct them and let them go again.

As an aside, I really enjoy climbing at Bayside in Vic though hate having to use the Eddy when leading. I understand safety is a must though if I can lead outdoors with my ATC I reckon I can lead with it indoors just as well.

Paul

9-Feb-2011
10:29:36 PM

If someone can't belay properly using an ATC then it is a good idea for them to learn.

I went climbing with a friend from uni once who had been "climbing for 2 years", when we got to the crag and racked up I passed her a ATC and she asked how to use it.

If a person deosn't have the mental capacity to master the use of an atc then it is likely that there would be other safety concerns with them belaying.

My vote is not ban auto lockers, but make people demonstrate a competancy with an atc first. Good belaying technique probably stop most of the incidents assocaited with a auto lockers.


garbie

9-Feb-2011
10:29:45 PM

On 9/02/2011 Miguel75 wrote:

>
>As an aside, I really enjoy climbing at Bayside in Vic though hate having
>to use the Eddy when leading. I understand safety is a must though if I
>can lead outdoors with my ATC I reckon I can lead with it indoors just
>as well.
>

They ask you to use an Eddy?


ajfclark

9-Feb-2011
10:30:06 PM

No. They say that the only allowed lead belay device is the Eddy. They lend you one.


ChuckNorris

9-Feb-2011
10:32:35 PM

But grigris are awesome if you are facebooking friends that you have just farted and are doing ROCKCLIMBING.

Where's that poll option?


Miguel75

9-Feb-2011
10:41:29 PM

On 9/02/2011 ajfclark wrote:
>No. They say that the only allowed lead belay device is the Eddy. They
>lend you one.

You beat me to it. It's the only device available for lead at Bayside. They don't work too well on thicker ropes either...

rightarmbad

9-Feb-2011
10:50:12 PM

I'd like to use whatever I like.
I'd also like to see competent climbers as safety nazi's. Not some newby just done a safety course

I get pulled up all the time for supposedly not putting my hand behind my back using a gri gri, WTF, yet stand one climb away from total incompetence embodied, and nothing is said to them.

zoe_kay

9-Feb-2011
11:27:53 PM

I havent had an issue with having to use the Eddy at bayside with my 10.5mm... Sure is a bloody safe device. Wouldn't buy one because of the price and weight though. Could be convinced to purchase the GriGri 2 if I could use it!

Richard Delaney

9-Feb-2011
11:35:48 PM

Mike,
do you include slo-go's as assisted braking devices?
Richard

tskinner

9-Feb-2011
11:37:13 PM

On 9/02/2011 Miguel75 wrote:
>On 9/02/2011 ajfclark wrote:
>>No. They say that the only allowed lead belay device is the Eddy. They
>>lend you one.
>
>You beat me to it. It's the only device available for lead at Bayside.
>They don't work too well on thicker ropes either...

Try a smaller carabiner. First time we used the eddy at Bayside we thought that the rope must have been too thick (10.2) but it turned out the large biner we were using was the issue.


Miguel75

9-Feb-2011
11:42:27 PM

Thanks Tracey, I'll try a smaller biner next time. I just picked up a 9.5mm rope which should help too...


Eduardo Slabofvic

9-Feb-2011
11:44:18 PM

Learn to walk before you learn to run. Meaning, learn to control the break line using a stitch plate or the like, as the fear of death will make you do it properly. Once you know how to control the break line, then use what ever you like, as long as you continue to control the break line and not rely on the "auto block" to compensate for your incompetence.


BoulderBaby

9-Feb-2011
11:44:53 PM

I'd love to use my ATC at bayside, as the Eddy really pisses me off with it's slow feed/locking up thing. I'm pumping out man, I need slack asap!

I think the grigri's are awesome on sport routes - I nearly pumped out the other day, just holding the brake rope while Tom was hanging/working a route. Can't wait to buy the grigri 2!


Miguel75

9-Feb-2011
11:50:43 PM

I agree Eduardo, I much prefer an ATC and figure everyone should know how to belay properly using one. After that move on to whatever floats your boat.


pmonks

10-Feb-2011
2:59:10 AM

Not an answer to your question, Mike, but maybe another data point to ponder...

Of the two major gym chains here in the litigious Bay Area, one (Touchstone) requires you to bring your own belay device (which can be anything), while the other (Planet Granite) has in-situ gri-gris on every top-rope, and requires their use (whether you'd choose to use one, given the opportunity, or not). When leading, Planet Granite requires you to bring your own belay device, which can be anything.

I'm in two minds about the wisdom of the Planet Granite approach. I can see how keeping fixed gri-gris might be safer for n00bs, particularly since they're left threaded with the rope, so there's no chance of a n00b threading the rope the wrong way. On the other hand, mixing up gri-gris and another device during an evening's climbing (e.g. bit of top-roping, then some leading) doesn't seem like a good recipe.

There are also some cases (e.g. climbing with little kids who weigh three-fifths of bugger-all) where the gri-gri is (imvho) worse than an ATC or whatever. In this case the requirement to use the fixed gri-gris is at best annoying and at worst potentially dangerous - it's easy to let out a huge loop of slack while the kid is still hanging up there solely from the friction around the block at the top (most gyms here double wrap the block at the top, which adds yet more friction to the system).

Maidy

10-Feb-2011
5:24:57 AM

I'd like my partners to use what they are most comfortable and least likely to drop me with. Whether or not a person should be able to choose in a gym setting- kinda depends on the philosophy of the owner, and possibly the insurance carrier.

I go to two gyms. One only allows ATC's the other only allows gri-gris. Here in the US, I think it boils down to what insurance carrier is insuring the gym and they sort of dictate the device that will be used depending on whatever resource they got their accident stats from. I learned on an ATC. I lead-belay better with an ATC, so I don't like being forced to use a gri-gri but that particular gym feels it is "safer".

Personally... When I instruct beginners I teach them ATC so that they have real belay skills beaten into their psyche before they get to use the toys and widgets. Gri-gri's give a false sense of security- particularly with inexperienced belayers and I see a lot of terrible belay technique with people who learned to climb at the gri-gri only gym when I compare to the ATC only gym climbers. In a professional setting or if you are doing a ton of top-roping on stuff people are going to hang on- gri-gris are great.

Samuel

10-Feb-2011
8:32:39 AM

I am not so sure that that's the break we want to be talking about when it comes to
climbing ropes and belaying.


nmonteith

10-Feb-2011
8:38:14 AM

On 9/02/2011 tskinner wrote:
>Try a smaller carabiner. First time we used the eddy at Bayside we thought
>that the rope must have been too thick (10.2) but it turned out the large
>biner we were using was the issue.

I found it was more the shape of the biner not the size that is important. Use a biner with a large curve, like a pear shaped or oval screw gate. Any biner with a sharp turn like a D shaped biner will interfere with the rope inside the device and make it lock up. Take the Eddy to a shop and try all the biners they have and get the perfect fit.

Zoe_Kay

10-Feb-2011
8:53:41 AM

Hi Garbie,
Not sure if you will want to/ can answer this... But how do the numbers stack up in your gyms?
Eg. How many leading accident have there been with people using an ATC, how many using a GriGri and how many using an Eddy???

There are 73 messages in this topic.