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Off-topic: Climbers who believe in Jesus 7-Feb-2011 At 12:29:08 AM dave h.

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Olbert -

I choose contradiction #2: Was Abraham justified by faith or by works?

Your busily-annotating Skeptics say that Romans 4:2 suggests he was justified by faith, while James 2:21 suggests he was justified by works. They've taken one sentence and have divorced them from the surrounding text. (I hope I don't need to explain why this is not cricket.) While they appear to be contradictory, in fact they are quite consistent.

If they had gone on to read James 2:22-23 they would see the author write: "You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God."

This part of James 2 is a discussion about faith and works. The point James is making is that a faith which does not result in actions carried out consistently with that faith is dead. James tells us that it was Abraham's faith, which he expressed by offering Isaac upon the altar (and that's a discussion for another day), that was credited to him as righteousness - ie, it justified him.

http://www.esvonline.org/search/Romans+4/ - link to Romans 4.
http://www.esvonline.org/search/James%20%2B2/ - James 2.

Your skeptics have it wrong. If they'd bothered to read a few verses on either side of the ones they've extracted, they would see that they're not inconsistent at all.

Re: why people do things.
Why should we broaden the definition of religion so as to include Stalin's "cult of personality"? From my point of view it looks like Hitchens cherry-picking his definition to suit his argument.

Duncan -
thank you for the clarification. I don't deny the role of faith in my belief. But my faith is not a blind faith.

Voodoo -
I defer to your expertise re: SGS. SGS does notably produce a fair few climbers. Mostly due to the Endeavour club I believe...

Wendy -
amen to that. Bring on Tuesday (climbing day)...

rolsen -
>James (the one from the Bible) says "anyone who knows the
> good he (she) ought to do and doesn't do it sins"

Yeah. Reading the Bible is tough like that - it convicts me of my sin. I think you'll find a lot of Christians have consistent beliefs but struggle to find ways of realising those beliefs in action. Did you think I was claiming to be some spotless pure saint sojourning amongst sinners?

Sure some churches are just like tennis clubs. Don't let that bother you though, God'll sort out everyone who claims to be a Christian. One way or the other.

Re Christian beliefs causing harm - do you think it is the belief in se, or the way that belief is acted upon?

Anyway, I'm a little confused. It seems like you're pissed off that Christians aren't better Christians.