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Etiquette (how to be a climbing dickhead)


evanbb

25-Jan-2009
5:30:03 PM

Thought it might be fun to post this while I'm still fired up and drinking beer.

Just spent a nice morning at Mit Piddington, apart from one small incident. I was climbing with Bec, who hasn't pulled on since November, and I'm not at full strength yet either. So, we were ticking off some of the classics; we'd just done Joseph and after stuffing around with a cam Bec wanted something easier. So, let's do Angular Crack. Grade 11, excellent gear and a handy anchor at the top.

So I lead out, and got to about half way. Then I hear a whistle and a thump. Someone was throwing a rope down from the anchor above! No shouts of 'rope below'. So I sang out "Eh! I'm climbing this!" No response. I could hear them talking, so they could definitely hear me, maybe they thought I was on another route? So again "People at Angular Crack anchor, I am climbing Angular Crack right now. Can you hang on a sec and I'll get safe." Again no response.

10 seconds later, the other half of the rope comes sailing down. "Jesus Christ, what are you doing!"

Then the abseiler comes down. No apology, not even a hint of one. Better yet he gave me a lecture:
"Everyone knows this is the abseil route for this area. You shouldn't be climbing it."
"I thought it might be nice. It's a good easy trad route."
"Nope. It's too easy, and it's a descent route. It's much better left unclimbed."
"What if you're a grade 11 climber though?"
No response.

I climbed on. Then his second came down, somewhat more apologeticly. Apparently they didn't know each other very well.

Then to further endear himself, he thought it'd be a good idea to give Bec some safety tips while she was belaying. "You know you shouldn't be tethered to the ground. He's heavier than you, so there's no need for it".
I've heard this before and believe it to be arrant nonsense. Sure, there may be the odd situation when being tethered gives some disadvantage, but I can't think of any tha can't be fised with some good belaying technique; which Bec has. In the opposite case though, there is plenty of chance for danger, as we have found out. I fell on an easy route when neither of us were expecting a fall, quite close to the ground. Bec left the ground, and banged her face against the rock. I decked out, and bruised the shiit out of my heal. He then went on to tell Bec what a waste of time hemlets were and why didn't she just buy a $15 bike helmet? Meanwhile I was on lead still, thinking about this post.

So, there is a chance that the protagonist is reading this. I hope you are. You are a dickhead and you have terrible manners. In my opinion the person leading a route ALWAYS has right of way, even if it is a convenient descent route, or an easy route. Who cares how hard it is anyway? What if I was genuinely leading at my limit, and a falling rope hit me in the face, while clipping, or at some other calamitous juncture? I think more than anything, the problem here was ego. He could not admit that he forgot to yell 'rope below' and instead of admitting his mistake, he took the confrontational route and tried to blame me to cover his own deficiency. Again; you are a dickhead, and I hope your next onsight is blown by someone yelling out beta after the crux.

Rant over.


pmonks

25-Jan-2009
5:46:27 PM

You're lucky the rope was all that came down! If memory serves, that sloping ledge above angular crack is festooned with loose rocks just waiting to pummel anyone below.

Totally agree with you though - those going up have (or should have!) right of way over those going down.

dmnz

25-Jan-2009
5:53:50 PM

Yes I think that regardless of whether it is a descent route or not you had right of way, especially once he'd seen you as he started down after throwing the ropes on you. Plus it is good to check and call out and then WAIT before throwing a rope. Too many people just yell and throw at the same time.

Perhaps you should carry a knife on your harness?

And why wouldn't you wear a helmet especially if there is loose stuff and idiots dropping in unannounced?


GravityHound

25-Jan-2009
6:14:08 PM

On 25/01/2009 dmnz wrote:
>Plus it is good to check and call out and then
>WAIT before throwing a rope. Too many people just yell and throw at the
>same time.

that happened to me today at york. there with the child, harnessing her up at the bottom.
"rope below"
"not yet" followed by the sound of rope sailing through the air. i grabbed her under my arm and got her out of the way. was close. she had no idea what was going on...


EJ

25-Jan-2009
6:30:00 PM

>"Everyone knows this is the abseil route for this area. You shouldn't
>be climbing it."
>"I thought it might be nice. It's a good easy trad route."
>"Nope. It's too easy, and it's a descent route. It's much better left
>unclimbed."

.... Haha, those comments are classic. If we use the same reasoning, does that mean climbs like Missing Link or any other that happen to coincide with a descent route, immediately become convenient thoroughfares?


Dan Theman

25-Jan-2009
7:30:37 PM

maybe its time for them to toughen up and down climb and leave the routes for climbing!

grego

25-Jan-2009
8:02:12 PM

That was one of my first trad leads, as i am sure it is for many. I reckon i would have been pretty
stressed if that had happened to me.

Along a similar line - friend of mine was leading the first pitch of Skink. It was one of her first leads on
trad. There was a guy next to us getting ready to do Auto De Fe. Anyways, he was chatting away
quite loudly about climbing falls and deaths on a route he had put up. I asked politely if he could
change the topic given someone was leading. And he quips "Well if she's scared she should put more
pro in." I'm like....WTF?

Then i am doing the second pitch and he says "a lot of people having been pulling on those
chockstones over the years". Hmm. Thanks for the insight mate.. but there is a time and a place.

Anyway, he did the first pitch of Auto De Fe and after that he was too scared so he backed off. So we
were pretty chuffed with that.

Olbert

25-Jan-2009
10:50:19 PM

Thats rediculous. There is absolutely no way that that guy had any leg to stand on, he was wrong on a thousand different counts and yet had the arrogance to find something wrong with both the leader and the belayer. I am getting steamed up just thinking about it. Even if he were right(which he definitely isnt) and it was solely a descent route then he shouldnt have thrown the ropes anyway as he still could have hit the leader. So many things about this piss me off.

I dont understand how climbers like that get into climbing as someone has to first has to initiate them, and who would bother to initiate a dickhead. Unless of course he paid for it...

Angular Crack is a low grade classic and there aint that many around. It was my first trad lead too and I was shit scared as it was, without people chucking ropes at me.

There is only one thing worse then a really arrogant person: a really arrogant person who doesnt know $h!t

rod

26-Jan-2009
4:41:14 AM

Getting sufficiently upset with other people's etiquette to warrant an online rant when you were seeking a cruisy run up such an easy climb is a bit over the top as well evanbb.

The bloke being a wanker or not (seems he was from your rant) with the point on tethering your belayer there is the fact that it reduces the belayer's range of choices in being able to avoid falling rock and can reduce the dynamic effect of a belay in a big fall; I rarely let mrs rod tether herself to the belay on a sling unless there's the risk she'll slide off down the hill/route, if we've got a wide enough stance on multi's I even hitch her in to a couple of locking carabiners with her end of the rope and leave several metres range so she can get out of the way if need arises.


evanbb

26-Jan-2009
5:27:59 AM

On 26/01/2009 rod wrote:
>Getting sufficiently upset with other people's etiquette to warrant an
>online rant when you were seeking a cruisy run up such an easy climb is
>a bit over the top as well evanbb.

Oh yeah, I acknowledge that there's a bit of over-the-topness going, mostly because it's a forum and it's good to exagerate to fire up debate. And I intenionally wrote it early on so I was still pointlessly grumpy.
>

>point on tethering your belayer there is the fact that it reduces the belayer's
>range of choices in being able to avoid falling rock
That's a fair point that I hadn't thought of. The up-fall for Bec is probably only an issue for the first couple of clips; after that there's enough friction in the system. So I suppose a better option would be to tether for the first couple of pieces, then undo the biner.

>dynamic effect of a belay in a big fall;

There i no risk of my taking a big fall. Also, because I place a lot of gear there's usually enough spring to slow me down anyway. My ropes are intentionally stretchy as well. It would probably be different on a sport route.

Winston Smith

26-Jan-2009
8:23:19 AM

On 26/01/2009 rod wrote:
>Getting sufficiently upset with other people's etiquette to warrant an
>online rant when you were seeking a cruisy run up such an easy climb is
>a bit over the top as well evanbb.
>
>The bloke being a wanker or not (seems he was from your rant) with the
>point on tethering your belayer there is the fact that it reduces the belayer's
>range of choices in being able to avoid falling rock and can reduce the
>dynamic effect of a belay in a big fall; I rarely let mrs rod tether herself
>to the belay on a sling unless there's the risk she'll slide off down the
>hill/route, if we've got a wide enough stance on multi's I even hitch her
>in to a couple of locking carabiners with her end of the rope and leave
>several metres range so she can get out of the way if need arises.

Mate I can't believe that you're chiding Evan. The other bloke is a f**king wanker and deserves to know so, especially through a forum like this. I think it's an especially instructive example of the arrogance that you occasionally encounter when climbing.

A climb is a climb regardless of the grade. It is not a "descent route" it is a climb equipped with a rap point. If ya wanna get off a cliff when someone happens to be on the route, walk down or find another rap point - like the one 20 secs walk away on the top of The Eternity.

As for being told what to do by said wanker - there so much contradictory advice about when to tether or not that - why would you take any notice of an idiot who doesn't even understand the basic climbing etiquette.


skink

26-Jan-2009
12:14:58 PM

On 26/01/2009 rod wrote:
>with the
>point on tethering your belayer there is the fact that it reduces the belayer's
>range of choices in being able to avoid falling rock

I have been hit by falling rock because I was not tethered. When rock and your leader fall simultaneously (think hold breaking - in my case a briefcase sized piece of layback flake), the belay coming tight decides where you can go to avoid the falling bits. If the fall is big and/or your leader substantially heavier, you have no control over where you go as stuff comes down (stuff = rock, gear, or worst case, your lead climber). And this risk doesn't go away as the leader goes higher.

So as usual, whether to tether or not depends. Ask yourself:
- how bomber is the rock and pro (tho my incident occurred on a bolted sport-climb)?
- is there a safe place to position the belayer (under an overhang, in close if the climb is steep to overhanging)?
- how heavy is the belayer compared to the leader?
- how big a fall is likely?

So to get back on topic, throwing around advice on climbing safety after rapping down a route someone is leading is IMHO dickhead behaviour.


BoulderBaby

26-Jan-2009
12:23:38 PM

Bec should have grabbed thier rope and held it like a brake.

Rude Gits.


kuu

26-Jan-2009
1:25:07 PM

On 25/01/2009 evanbb wrote:
>Thought it might be fun to post this while I'm still fired up and drinking
>beer.

Hi Evan, I think your post was justified with or without the assistance of beer!

>So I lead out, and got to about half way. Then I hear a whistle and a
>thump. Someone was throwing a rope down from the anchor above! No shouts
>of 'rope below'.

In this particular situation, as with many others, it is not necessary to "throw" a rope down. It can
simply be lowered, metre by metre. That way it just quietly snakes past an ascending leader and
causes much less concern as it's easy to see what is going on. Even so, a call of "Rope Below" or
whatever, would be appropriate and, I would have thought, standard 'climbing etiquette'.

>Then to further endear himself, he thought it'd be a good idea to give
>Bec some safety tips while she was belaying. "You know you shouldn't be
>tethered to the ground. He's heavier than you, so there's no need for it".

Well, does this approach to belaying, when transferred to a multi-pitch climb, see the second sitting
untethered (anchored) on each belay ledge up the climb? If so then have I been making a silly mistake
throughout all my years of climbing -- or is this perhaps merely the difference between sport climbing
and 'real' climbing? ;-)


Twitch

26-Jan-2009
4:59:39 PM

On 26/01/2009 Musique wrote:
>Bec should have grabbed thier rope and held it like a brake.

Second that.

Bec: "Sorry gents you might just have to wait a moment while I tie you off to my lovely bottom belay here"

Could make the last few of Evan's moves onto shattered shale ledge a little... delicate?

yosemite05

26-Jan-2009
7:35:53 PM

I'm sure if Bec did hold the rope or tie it off, I'm sure the said d#$kheads would have only unetiquettely started throwing rocks down.


Chalk Free

26-Jan-2009
8:35:56 PM

Yes, it doesn't matter what activity you are into there are always dickheads.

psd

27-Jan-2009
9:36:28 AM

On 25/01/2009 evanbb wrote:

>So, there is a chance that the protagonist is reading this. I hope you
>are. You are a dickhead and you have terrible manners. In my opinion the
>person leading a route ALWAYS has right of way, even if it is a convenient
>descent route, or an easy route. Who cares how hard it is anyway? >

Dead right Evan - what a complete w*nker. Another example of why you should always carry a knife even on simple single pitch routes.

hero

27-Jan-2009
10:57:41 AM

True, never know when you'll need to tie a Yates Hitch.

(Formally known as the Taugwalder Knot)

widewetandslippery

27-Jan-2009
12:40:23 PM

Evan, I apprieciate the arseholes point of view in regard to historical prcedent regarding the descent. Climbing up a well known descent route could be seen as silly.

BUT:

The route at its grade is bloody good if not classic. A well under rated piddo route.

You yelled and made it clear you were going up. In my climbing etiquette book the unit on the sharp end is RIGHT. DO NOT f--- WITH THE BLOKE ON THE SHARP END.

In the good ole days the good ole boys used this route as a descent, downclimbing solo. (I was always to balless to do this). Have You seen the moon bros race up the west wall vid?

There are 33 messages in this topic.