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Barrenjoey Crack Retrobolting

dantheman

24-Jan-2004
1:18:12 PM

Can any one shed any light on why a grade 16 crack on Abseil Wall at Barrenjoey has been retrobolted ?? Who is responsible for this ?? What should be done ??
I have several issues with this action:
1/ The crack has always been a trad climb and was put up in the 1970s. Have the bolters gained permission from the first asscencionist to do this (would you give permission for 5 bolts to be plced next to your crack climb)? Have they discussed it with others ? Doest it fit the character and ethics of the crag ? (i think not, Barrenjoey is trad wherever possible and at times scary if you are not solid as a typical placement is a cam in a flaring sandy horizontal crack.) Are these bolters acting unilaterally with out consideration of others ?
2/ Despite the guide description of the climb stating that the gear was thin I led the climb on gear and thought that the protection was sufficient (not always the case at Barrenjoey!!), including several bomber pieces and several that i would prefer not to fall on but which i judged to be ok. Perhaps the description comes from a time before cams?? Also bolts had been placed right next to several of the bomber natural placements.
3/ The bolts are shiny new fixed hangers(with the bolt sticking out past the hanger by up to 2 inches! How far in are these bolts?) which are very obvious and in your face. Most climbs with bolts at Barrenjoey are inobvious glue in carrots. Whilst this may not be an issue at other crags Barrenjoey is a very popular multi use national park with on going access issues. Does this sort of new bolting potentially compromise access by making the impact of climbers all the more obvious to the general public and the land managers ?
4/ The bolt itself has an allen key slot in its end and do not appear to be glued in. Is this a Dynabolt or expansion bolt ?? How good are these in sandstone ?? I read that this type of bolt should not be used in a soft rock like sandstone and hence all of the glue in bolts at ather sandstone crags.
5/ The bolting of this enjoyable crack has dramatically changed the character of the climb whether you clip the bolts or not. Knowing you could clip the bolt if you thought you needed to has reduced the commitment needed to do this climb and reduced the grade and emotions felt if climbing it on the bolts.
I felt pretty angry when i saw this despoilment of the crag and i still feel that the bolts should be removed. I would prefer to do this with the knowledge and approval of the bolters or at least the support of the climbing community in general. So please respond to this. After all if everyone thinks the bolts should stay perhaps i should re-examine my opinion........

rodw

24-Jan-2004
2:26:50 PM

I take it you mean this route, quoted from sydneyclimbing.com,
Abseil Wall 14m 16
Start: 2m left of M.
Wall and crack. Sparse pro. Double RB belay / rap station.
Northern Beaches Cliff Training Team 1970s
Seeems a bit wierd to bother bolting the crack considering there are plenty of other routes with suspect bolts that would be worth a rebolt at barenjoey. Im sure Nat parks would have a cow, but Karingai Chase Nat Parks mob would have a cow about anything. In answer to the post though,

1/ Could have been the original ascentist you never know.

2/ One mans well protected test piece is another man horrow show :) The bolts are probably next to the good cam placements as then they could clip into the wall making it easier to drill....you hope thats not the case but I reckon it a good assumption.

3/ Most of the bolts at Barrenjoey are pre glue in rings etc thats why I reckon they are carrots, not because of the areas ethics. As for the land manager ie Nat parks, dont get me started.

4/ They can come loose but Im sure they are no worse that alot of the manky carrots already at the crag.

5/ If you can remove without furthur damaging the rock maybe, but you better find out who put them in first and the reason...dont want to start a bolting/anti bolting war especialy at barenjoey were the land managers are anti climbing in the first place.

In summary I dont think the bolts should have been placed, but to be honest it dosnt really rate on my annoyance scale either.

Rod

bob

25-Jan-2004
9:53:03 AM

I think the bolts should be removed if they can be with out damaging the rock as rodw said. I think that bolts should only be out in where it’s to unsafe not to have one or at an abseil or there is absolutely no pro.

I don’t think that bolting frenzy’s are necessary!!!!!!
And I am highly against random bolting of the crags.
BOB

IdratherbeclimbingM9

30-Jan-2004
11:10:16 AM

>On 24/01/2004 durvan wrote:
>Can any one shed any light on why a grade 16 crack on Abseil Wall at Barrenjoey
>has been retrobolted ?? Who is responsible for this ?? What should be done
>??
>1/ The crack has always been a trad climb and was put up in the 1970s.
>Have the bolters gained permission from the first asscencionist to do this
No they have not.

This is sad news indeed.
Bill Goddard from Palm Beach (still runs a bicycle shop in Avalon?), was the leader of the northern beaches cliff training team (NBCTT) of which I was a latter day member. It was he along with varying partners that put up many of the original climbs at BJ and developed abseil wall about 1971 / 2.
Mind you, at that time we were unable to establish who put in some bolts at the top of abseil wall due to their antiquity even then! The best we could ascertain was that the army had used it to practice abseiling, ... hence the name for that section of cliff.

>(would you give permission for 5 bolts to be plced next to your crack climb)?
NO

>Have they discussed it with others ?
Obviously not.

>Doest it fit the character and ethics of the crag ? (i think not, Barrenjoey is trad wherever >possible.
Right on.

>Perhaps the description comes from a time before cams??
YES.
I clearly remember when Craig Martin established many new climbs (post NBCTT, ie early to mid 80's), using 'friends' that some of us old fogies considered it (use of friends) 'cheating' back then!

>Most climbs with bolts at Barrenjoey are inobvious glue in carrots.
The sea cliff environment has probably rendered most of these useless by now. We considered the army ones to be approaching the point of being unsafe due to corrosion back in the early 70's.
(In my opinion new climbs where natural gear is not available at BJ are OK to bolt with appropriate hardware for the environment, but should be suitably camouflaged).

>Whilst this may not be an issue at other crags Barrenjoey
>is a very popular multi use national park with on going access issues.
>Does this sort of new bolting potentially compromise access by making the
>impact of climbers all the more obvious to the general public and the land
>managers ?
Yes.

>5/ The bolting of this enjoyable crack has dramatically changed the character
>of the climb whether you clip the bolts or not. Knowing you could clip
>the bolt if you thought you needed to has reduced the commitment needed
>to do this climb and reduced the grade and emotions felt if climbing it
>on the bolts.
>I felt pretty angry when i saw this despoilment of the crag and i still
>feel that the bolts should be removed.
I feel angry too, and the fact that generations of climbers have safely led this route without the need for bolts vindicates my feelings.

>I would prefer to do this with the
>knowledge and approval of the bolters or at least the support of the climbing
>community in general. So please respond to this.
You have my permission to remove them (if you cannot contact Bill Goddard, as I am certain that Bill would agree with me).
I do not believe you require the permission of the retrobolters, though as a matter of courtesy you can advise them of your intentions (if you wish). If they disagree, you can advise them that there are some old fogies out there who will do the deed ... irrespective of their 'new found' bolting zeal, and the issue is not debatable from my perspective.

When this is done however, the bolts should be removed in such a way as to NOT damage the rock any further. If necessary the rock will need to be patched after pulling the bolts. Don't just simply twist them off, thereby leaving a stub to rust and stain the rock.

>rodw 24/01/04
>1/ Could have been the original ascentist you never know.
Absolutely not, I can assure you.

>2/ One mans well protected test piece is another man horrow show :) The bolts are probably >next to the good cam placements as then they could clip into the wall making it easier to >drill....you hope thats not the case but I reckon it a good assumption.
If it was necessary the wankers could have done it off an abseil rope, to at least have been historically in line with the location!

>3/ Most of the bolts at Barrenjoey are pre glue in rings etc thats why I reckon they are >carrots, not because of the areas ethics.
True, they are carrots. Most were hand drilled on lead also.

>5/ If you can remove without furthur damaging the rock maybe, but you better find out who >put them in first and the reason...dont want to start a bolting/anti bolting war especialy at >barenjoey were the land managers are anti climbing in the first place.
It will not result in a bolting/anti war on my part, any retrobolting will simply be removed. The retrobolters simply need educating instead.

rodw

30-Jan-2004
2:31:30 PM

Good enough for me, remove those bolts

Estey

30-Jan-2004
5:52:59 PM

I climbed at BJ late last year. I don't recall seeing the offending bolts at the time so the retrobolt must be pretty recent.

IMHO the route 'abseil wall' is poorly protected ... sure you can put a few pieces in, but the quality of the placements and the relatively soft rock has kept me away from the sharp end. Generations of Sydney climbers have managed to get by without the bolts ... mostly on toprope. However this doesn't justify the retrobolt. There are heaps of well protected routes of a similar grade at the crag. So if somebody decides to chop em (without doing further damage) they would have my support.

By the way most of the popular routes at BJ have been systematically rebolted with gluein, stainless steel machine bolts. Seems to have been bolt for bolt with the old mild steel carrots neatly removed. Hat's off to whoever did the work. The new bolts are metric so it is a little hard to fiddle on boltplates (but not impossible).

There are 6 messages in this topic.