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General Climbing Discussion

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water knot for webbing??

spax74

1-May-2006
1:24:41 PM

hi does anyone have a picture of a water knot? i've heard that was the best way for webbing, better than double fisherman..
thanks


Nick Kaz

1-May-2006
1:35:10 PM

Try here and if thats not enough help try here. ;)

Dalai

1-May-2006
1:42:00 PM

On 1/05/2006 spax74 wrote:
>hi does anyone have a picture of a water knot? i've heard that was the
>best way for webbing, better than double fisherman..
>thanks

Double fisherman for webbing!!!???

gfdonc

1-May-2006
2:00:02 PM

On 1/05/2006 Dalai wrote:
>Double fisherman for webbing!!!???

Yeah. I've heard of it but never used it. Apparently works OK, more loss of strength than the water knot, but double (or triple!) fishermans is required for tying spectra/dyneema I hear.

Enough to make an old bloke get his sewing machine out .. oops, too late ..


belayslave

1-May-2006
5:00:17 PM

>On 1/05/2006 Dalai wrote:
>Double fisherman for webbing!!!???

That sounds scary!! i wouldn't use a double fisherman, never heard of it's use for webbing. Tape (aka
water) know works perfectly well... as does a novelty one, the beer
knot

kieranl

1-May-2006
8:09:19 PM

Double fisherman's works fine for webbing and is perfectly safe though it makes a bulky knot. Has the advantage over the water knot that it is less prone to working loose - though it still does over time. Also damn near impossible to undo after loading which really defeats the purpose of having a knotted sling - may as well have a sewn sling to start with.


socialclimber

1-May-2006
8:38:37 PM

One method to reduce slippage in the tails of your water knot is to put a couple of stitches through them with a needle and thread.. Some years ago a regular climbing partner I had would stitch his tails with dental floss to stop slipping. The floss is water proof and turned out to be quite robust. In the couple of years we climbed together the tails didn't slip at all.

jjobrien

2-May-2006
8:10:26 AM

That's funny, I didn't know anyone else did that. I used to run up and down the tails with the sewing machine, to stop them slipping, but mostly just to stop them flapping about. The beer knot put at end to that.

Paul

2-May-2006
3:01:36 PM

To ovoid slippage with the water knott I just tie an overhand knot in each of the tales, alternately just make them suficiently long enough,. I seem to recall reading that the tales should be at least five times the width ofthe tape somewhere.

To ovoid slippage and make it easier to undo you could use the surgens knott as illustrated bellow, it used to be common place on ropes courses which used tape harnesses. Not quite sure on its limitations though! I would sugest a bit more research before using it!

Paul

2-May-2006
3:16:16 PM

The beer knot can be potentially dangerous, it can be dificult to visually tell how much overlap there is due to one of the tales being hiden inside the tape. Tape hnots are known to often have some slippage. I have seen the beer knot fail due to slippage when attempting to move a stuck raft on a rafting trip. If you use this knott make sure you have plenty of overlap and check it by fealing the tape with your fingers not just visually.


Nick Kaz

2-May-2006
5:02:44 PM

Ofcourse adding socialclimbers couple of stitches in the beer knot essentially gives you a poor mans sewn sling...


IdratherbeclimbingM9

2-May-2006
5:28:17 PM

>surgens knott
>beer knot

What is it with generation X always wanting to reinvent the wheel?

If you have the $, buy sewn slings.
If you want versatility (from a trad perspective), then tie your own with a time proven knot ie tape knot (aka water knot).
I have used them for many years and if they are weighted after tying any tendancy to slip is minimised. With appropriate length tails they are safe. And the best feature about a knot that is visible is exactly that !!
... ie you can visually inspect it for soundness.

In practise the only times I have found my tape knots inclined to start to loosen up, is after they have been worked over in wet conditions (canyoning etc). The check is easy to perform and the remedy is to simply retighten/reweight them again.
More often I have found the opposite true; ie when I have wanted to undo one it's been a bugger of a job because they seemed welded so tight!

gfdonc

2-May-2006
6:14:28 PM

Climbing recently with one of my trusted 'mates' I noticed one tied tape sling where the tape end was in danger of disappearing inside the knot.

The owner hadn't realised & is a person I would consider a very safe climber.

Lesson is: if you use tied slings then check them, often. Leave big tails (10cm?). These things can wriggle loose after repeated weighting/unweighting due to "creep". Or stitch the ends down (I concur with earlier posters on this issue, it worked for me).

mikl law

3-May-2006
7:22:50 AM

heavy bouncing when tied generally locks them up. The old overkill Troll supertape was about 25 mm wide and 5 mm thick and held about 19 tonnes. It was mega stiff and water knots undid allt eh tie. I sewed the ends of the tape to stop this and extended a piece and saw that the knot had rolled along the tape about 20 cm, the only thing that was keeping the tape in a circle was the 2 small patches of handstitching.

ant

3-May-2006
7:37:29 AM

On 2/05/2006 M9iswhereitsat wrote:
>More often I have found the opposite true; ie when I have wanted to undo
>one it's been a bugger of a job because they seemed welded so tight!

Roll the water knot against the rock with your palm, like you would roll play-dough into worms with the grand kids. This will loosen the knot, making it easier to pull apart.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

3-May-2006
7:50:13 AM

>The owner hadn't realised
Every time I pack my gear to go and use it I check them, along with cam triggers etc*. Just part of my safety routine/s I guess. I find they only rarely ever require retightening.

>heavy bouncing
Yep, and hanging off the tails with pliers too!

>Roll the water knot against the rock with your palm
Good tip.
... an aid hammer or a knife does wonders too! Failing that, a nut tool can help sometimes.
:).

(*Definite signs of a gear freak? Gotta love the process as much as the event.
heh, heh, heh).

jjobrien

3-May-2006
4:23:58 PM

Tight water knots are easy to undo with bullnosed pliers.


belayslave

3-May-2006
5:04:36 PM

just floating an idea...
does anyone else worry about the effect of putting a sewing needle through a home-tied sling?

Yes i know that's exactly how sewn slings are made, but they're professionally (and presumable) machine
sewn and tested.

My thinking would be that sticking a sharp needle (however small it might be) through your sling would be
equivalent to treading on slings and ropes which is a no no.

Anyone any thoughts on if there's a strength decrease or any other side effects?

I've never used the stitching tails method, instead use electrical or climbing tape to tape the ends to the
main body of the sling. Guess my method doesn't prevent slippage/shrinkage of tails as well as stitching
might.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

3-May-2006
5:19:33 PM

gfdonc or mikl will have the good info on that (needles and stitching effects).

I used to tape the tails but never found it lasted satisfactorily. I then pondered about tape-glues and their effect on nylon based products. When I updated my slings I simply decided to live with loose tails, and have not found them to be a problem*.

(*Maybe it is a relative thing, eg carry a 'snagger' like a hook and you will notice its effect a lot more than bulky knots on slings).


belayslave

3-May-2006
5:35:05 PM

agreed M9. most of my tape has fallen off and never been replaced. I've never had a tail get noticeable
shorter, but regardless check them every time before use.
Your point of the tape glues is valid and interesting...

There are 23 messages in this topic.