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top roping from rap anchors


tepas

4-Aug-2005
8:16:08 PM

What's the recommended way to toprope a bolted climb with rap anchors? I believe the easy option of running the rope straight through the anchors is frowned upon?


adski

4-Aug-2005
8:43:25 PM

Any method that takes the abrasive wear off the fixed gear whilst being redundant is good. Lazy people (myself included) often just use two quickdraws, but there are obvious safety issues with this.

I use and recommend (tm) a 600m sling, threaded through one of the bolts and clipped to the other. A screwgate in the middle via a sliding knot for where the top rope goes. Add another screwgate if you're that way inclined.

If you're setting this up off a chain, making your attachment points inside the chain rather than the shackle means you'll have room to thread the rope through the shackle later on, instead of it being jammed full of biners. Same rationale goes for threading vs clipping a ring, sometimes there's not enough room for both a biner and a rope.


aikibujin

4-Aug-2005
10:40:19 PM

On 4/08/2005 adski wrote:
>redundant is good. Lazy people (myself included) often just use two quickdraws,
>but there are obvious safety issues with this.
>
>I use and recommend (tm) a 600m sling, threaded through one of the bolts
>and clipped to the other. A screwgate in the middle via a sliding knot for where the top rope goes.

I'm curious about your method. There are three things I don't undersand, I hope you could explain to me:
1. Could you explain the safety issues with using two quickdraws?
2. Could you explain why you thread the sling through one the bolts, instead of clipping it?
3. Why do you think the sliding knot is better than using two quickdraws?


adski

4-Aug-2005
11:22:51 PM

You're joking.


aikibujin

4-Aug-2005
11:30:07 PM

On 4/08/2005 adski wrote:
>You're joking.

I'm not, ask far as I know.

As we all know we Americans are silly and don't know what the hell we are doing. I'd like to know how you guys do things down south and why.

bne

5-Aug-2005
1:21:02 AM

>1. Could you explain the safety issues with using two quickdraws?
quick draws can open. Usually probably not.

>2. Could you explain why you thread the sling through one the bolts, instead
>of clipping it?
saves a biner

>3. Why do you think the sliding knot is better than using two quickdraws?
sliding knot is always equalised.


Hatman

5-Aug-2005
7:10:58 AM

Ok lets clear it up a bit.

You clip the rope through the draws so they are oposed (gates back not on same side)
This makes it much safer as if an action occurs that can unclip one draw acidentaly it wont affect the other.

You should equalise to avoid cross loading the bolts. attach a sling in the "american death triangle" (once again some thing you yanks invented)

No mater what the propper practice is you see many people simply top ropeing through the bolts (if they are rings which i understand there is no many of in the states)

This is bad because it creates a large death triangle and also puts wear on a non redundant part of the system. I have seen SS bolts worn 3/4 through!

On any new routes I put up with bolts I atatch a twisted shackle(s) to the anchors. This makes it easier to lower and you can replace the shackle(s) if it wears.


manacubus

5-Aug-2005
9:19:51 AM

C'mon guys, two opposed quickdraws are fine!


brat

5-Aug-2005
9:52:16 AM

I reverse the draws and thread a couple of steel screw lock biners instead of the alloys to save wear and add a touch of security, mostly for my partner who i want to keep in good nick (she's my GF, too hard to replace)

PS and I'm 20 years older than manacubus! :o)


rodw

5-Aug-2005
11:17:12 AM

I think the main issue is just dont thread straight through the anchors, its alot easier to replace a biner, quickdraw etc thats worn, rather than the actual anchors themselves. Two quickdraws are fine, it makes for redundancy in the system, but being safer cant hurt either.

Dont help let something, due to your laziness wear out in a few years, that could last 20+ years if treated right...but if you must thread the anchors...make sure you go and buy a drill and a few bolts to help replace the ones that do get worn out.....trust me not threading the anchors will prove easier in the long run.


cruze

5-Aug-2005
11:35:34 AM

I was thinking the other day how funny it is that most people (including myself) advocate against the use of lower-off anchors being used directly for top-roping but regularly find themselves lowering off those same anchors straight after threading their rope when done with the climb. I myself am no exception to this rule - and find it is almost unavoidable when cleaning steep routes. But I do believe that relatively the wear would be the same (unless the top-rope is being used by a whole bunch of people that will dog the crap out of the route).

In fact pretty much the only time I abseil off anchors (which will reduce the wear on the anchors the most) is when selfishly I worry about unneccessary wear on my rope when it has to pass over an edge because the anchors are set back from the top of the climb a little. I don't mean to hijack the thread but how many people regularly abseil a route to clean it rather than thread the rings (for eg) and lower away?

mpage

5-Aug-2005
11:39:59 AM

A lot of people don't beleive that rope can wear down steel. A few months ago I was abused when I offered to lend a sling and locking krabs to a group of climbers who were top roping directly through rings. I probably would of left them alone if it was only one person going up, but their were 8 of them about to be hauled up this route by the 'experienced' guide that was with them. I've climbed the route that they are on a few times and even though the rings are only about three years old, you can notice the wear on them. When the next climber has hauled up the route and noticed the grooves in the rings they changed their minds about borrowing the gear pretty quickly.

You will probably find though that the one of the main causes of this is an experinced climber climbing with someone new to the sport. Experienced climber leads the climb and is not comfortable in the ability of the novice to thread the rope through without decking so they don't bother with the draws and just thread it themselves.


Breezy

5-Aug-2005
11:56:01 AM

On 5/08/2005 manacubus wrote:
>C'mon guys, two opposed quickdraws are fine!


brat

5-Aug-2005
12:07:58 PM

Yeah Cruz you're right, but at least you're only getting friction on the lower off, not the climb and lower as with TRing, plus when leading you tend to do multiple climbs not just laps on one route!


sabu

5-Aug-2005
12:29:15 PM

in my little experience that i've had i'll put my word in anyway. whenever we've toproped stuff from ring bolts (i'll use werribee gorge as an example) our leader has set the anchor up using static ropes, so that a carabiner attached to the static rope via a figure 8 knot hangs just over the edge of the cliff. wouldn't that be the way to go to avoid wear?


Richard

5-Aug-2005
12:59:31 PM

On 5/08/2005 bne wrote:
>>1. Could you explain the safety issues with using two quickdraws?
>quick draws can open. Usually probably not.

These draws are being clipped into a d-shackle or rings, aren't they?

I didn't think you were supposed to clip solid metal objects togther - due to the possibility of a small contact area having to carry a large force - possible breaking?


brat

5-Aug-2005
1:31:44 PM

Depends on the anchor but it's no more than clipping to plates, which in some cases is all the rap station is 2 BPs!


cruze

5-Aug-2005
1:35:12 PM

Errrrr, Richard I think that many sport climbers would disagree with:

"I didn't think you were supposed to clip solid metal objects together"


IdratherbeclimbingM9

5-Aug-2005
2:16:15 PM

On 5/08/2005 Richard wrote:
>These draws are being clipped into a d-shackle or rings, aren't they?

>I didn't think you were supposed to clip solid metal objects togther -
>due to the possibility of a small contact area having to carry a large
>force - possible breaking?

Why not just run the rope through the (opposed) draw krabs ?
... Otherwise its just standard practice of clipping brackets with draws is it not??

Hex said Thursday, 16 September 2004 At 2:23:06 PM:
>Dicko --- funny SHAPED hat, bro --- NOW I do believe ya got an arrow thruya freakin' 'ed ...

:)


nmonteith

5-Aug-2005
2:39:45 PM

On 5/08/2005 sabu wrote:
>in my little experience that i've had i'll put my word in anyway. whenever
>we've toproped stuff from ring bolts (i'll use werribee gorge as an example)

Werribie is not a typical example! Most crags don't have fixed ringbolts set 5m back from the edge of the
cliff that have been installed by the government. The scenario being discussed here is for the typical
double bolt lower-off found on most sport routes and many trad routes at Arapiles and the Blue Mtns.
These are placed on the vertical cliff face at the end of the climbing (usually just below the mantle
topout).

There are 42 messages in this topic.