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Fixed gear guidelines in the Grampians 27-May-2018 At 10:22:21 PM (removed)

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Thanks for the contribution JacksonClimbs. Nice to hear a new voice. For the record, my thecrag profile suggests that I predominantly climb trad but I too love a bit of sport climbing and that's where I've spent most of my recent climbing.

A few points.

1. Slippery Slope seems to be the argument dismissal tactic de jour used by the pro-bolters here. The trouble is, for many who have climbed a long time, they'd argue that we're already well and truly on it. "Slippery Slope" is *only* a logical argument fallacy if there's no correlation between the activities - think "gay marriage leads to people marrying animals ..." for a case where you could successfully dismiss a line of argument.

That isn't the case here. We're suggesting that the some people bolting leads to more people bolting. Or the creation of entirely sport crags has led to the creation of more sport crags. Or some people adding retro-lower-offs leads to more people adding retro-lower-offs. All of which are happening now ... so you can choose not to believe it, but it doesn't make it any less real for those of us with our eyes open.

2. I simply can't accept an argument of demand-based climbing. That would imply a few things but the nastiest conclusion I can come to is that you appear to have some religious like sense of entitlement that suggests we have dominion over nature ... that it's our plaything to configure however the hell we want. Quite simply with a demand-based approach to equipping climbs, Rosea would absolutely be grid-bolted. And yeah, some people will have to learn this truth: "Hey, there's just not that many grade 15 sport climbs, either get stronger, or go and climb the world's greatest trad crag, with a fistful of wires and a cam or two. Otherwise, choose a different state, country or sport." And that's okay.

3. On the right to access to easy sport routes ... um, why ? There is no such right. See previous point about demand-based climbing.

4. On achieving some sort of equality in terms of the numbers of sport routes (and careful using thecrag for your numbers, even sport routes go in as mixed, trad or unknown if care hasn't been taken to update the style). Perhaps the biggest bugbear of all. I can finish a new trad route, wait for the rain to wash off the chalk and no-one will be the wiser for my presence. Not-so with those establishing sport routes - it's permanent alteration. These things are not the same.

5. You've conveniently overlooked Tracey's (now numerous) warnings that PV - you know the land managers of the area we climb in - are not happy with the current direction. And yet you are suggesting *more* sport routes ? (Until we reach equilibrium and thecrag reports that we all have exactly 33% bouldering, 33% trad and 33% sport I assume ?) We're tone deaf if we ignore such warnings.

6. We are not the only users of The Grampians. Our approach to crag development (and it drives me spare when I see people driving round the gate at The Ravine, or DT for example) suggests we think otherwise. Seriously, there is already more than one lifetime of sport routes available in the Grampians. Can't we just leave it alone now and play with the toys we have ?

Sincerely though, thanks for the input - even if I disagree !