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Fixed gear guidelines in the Grampians 15-May-2018 At 5:22:23 AM Wendy

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On 14-May-2018 Duang Daunk wrote:
>On 14-May-2018 Wendy wrote:
>>With the odd exception such as the bolt on Blimp, I think most climbing
>>ethical concerns will overlap with PV concerns. Climbing ethics also
>involve
>>minimising environmental and aesthetic impact. I'm fairly sure that
>my
>>issues with Dreamtime Wall and potential for something similar to happen
>>at other obscure crags would be shared with PV. Whilst PV might not care
>>if Rosea is a bolt free cliff, I'm guessing they would if it turned into
>>a high traffic sport area.
>
>I'm calling hypocrisy sis, as I think you just put another twist on the
>definition of slippery slope.

What, you don't think that the spread of DW style development would lead to PV involvement? I'm not saying that I think a few mixed routes at Rosea will lead to wholescale bolting there, but that if it did, it would probably come to the attention of PV.
>
>>This discussion isn't really about individual
>>events like Blimp, but the overall future management of route development.
>>We are trying to set standards so that slippery slopes don't occur, because
>>much as everyone loves using them for this argument, they can and are
>stopped
>>in almost all cases by agreeing on an appropriate point on the slope
>to
>>set boundaries.
>
> Like Dreamtime?

No one ever set boundaries for Dreamtime. If anything, people raved about this new sport climbing area and went in their hoards. I haven't been there for over 6 years, but I don't reckon removing half the cliff to try and find solid rock and turning an erosion prone remote area into a sport crag, with people driving around the gate and clearing new bush camping areas is a great precedent. I've never found Joe to be an unreasonable person. Extremely enthusiastic, yes, possibly his judgement can be a little overwhelmed by that, but he won't bite if you talk to him about stuff.
>
>> Kieran is suggesting doing so by categorising individual
>>crags for certain sorts of development. I am suggesting general principals
>>that can be applied across the board. Maybe someone has some other ideas.
>>But either which way, the question remains, what happens when people
>don't
>>comply?
>
>Chopping rightly starts of the offending bolts as well as including other
>routes the offender may have put up elsewhere, irrespective of if the bolter
>is a 7 ft tall giant because confrontation is no loss of energy, and besides
>it takes more effort and cost to put them in than to remove them.

I'm asking for ideas other than bolting wars! Can we please think outside the box? Surely that past 50 years or so have demonstrated that playground antics aren't really effective. Imagine you and/or Damo up against Gordy in a bolting war. It would be never ending.

>>
>>If we don't utilise existing legal frameworks for causing damage in national
>>parks, how do we deal with recalcitrant offenders such as the guy who
>appears
>>to have not learnt from having his previous bolts chopped? I really don't
>>think bolting wars are a good solution, even though I know there are
>people
>>on here who love them.
>
>You got the last part right sister.
>
>On 14-May-2018 Wendy wrote:
>>We are trying to set standards so that slippery slopes don't occur, because
>>much as everyone loves using them for this argument, they can and are
>stopped
>>in almost all cases by agreeing on an appropriate point on the slope
>to
>>set boundaries.
>
>There's that hippo thing again, but at least it seems you admit to them
>existing, because I was beginning to think you were a denialist.

I am a denialist of their validity! everything exists on a slippery slope. It's just that we make choices about where to be on that slope. I eat chocolate. I could keep eating more chocolate, I mean, eating chocolate is pretty damn good, but at some point I decided to stop eating chocolate before I make myself sick.