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Good safety thread 30-Jun-2014 At 11:01:23 PM Wollemi

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On 30/06/2014 Doug wrote:
>On 30/06/2014 martym wrote:
>>
>>According to Wikipedia:
>
>
>Hmmm. Might a more traditional source of knot-tying wisdom be more ... well ... authoritative?

Maybe. Are you able to supply your source of knowledge for staying safe on rope - and why you believe it? Here's one I don't have a problem with...

So I go to MartyM's link; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-sided_overhand_bend

And I am reassured - as the sensible 5-paragraph article clearly links five references. You hint at disappointment at Wikipedia... because? Or are you yet another person who blithely dismisses the usefulness of Wikipedia whether or not used sensibly?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-sided_overhand_bend#References

1. The Art of Knotting and Splicing (4th ed.) - as published by the the United States Government - Naval Institute Press,

And you can see the relevant portion written at pages 52 and 53 were you to seek out that book as authorised by the United States government. How authoritative do you want to get?

2. "On Knots and Swamps", in Turner, J.C.; van de Griend, P., History and Science of Knots, K&E Series on Knots and Everything. Singapore: World Scientific Publishing.

World Scientific Publishing holds the rights (since 1970) to publish the complete set of Nobel Lectures from 1901. Why would any person doubt their manner of collating fact?

3. Ashley, Clifford W. (1944), The Ashley Book of Knots, New York: Doubleday.

The Wikipedia entry for this book, if I may so cite it, reminds us - quite sensibly - of its age and of its relevance; 'The Ashley Book of Knots was published in the days of natural fiber cordage; the commentary on some knots may fail to address their behavior when tied in modern synthetic fiber ropes.'

4. Tom Moyer (1999-11-09), Rope and Gear Testing: Pull Tests of the "Euro Death-Knot"

Clicking on the link here in the references takes you http://user.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/EDK.html - which has accident reports and pull-test data. The evidence for more traditional source(s) of knot-tying wisdom is found thus;

Further Reading and Test Data on flat-knots:

Preferred Knots for Use in Canyons - from Bushwalker's Wilderness Rescue Research Page. Long paper with pull-test data on a number of knots used to join ropes, including measurement of the force to drag the knots across edges. The author concludes that the flat-overhand is his preferred choice and that the flat-figure-eight is dangerous.

Chockstone Tech Tips/JoinRopes - good pictures of knots and discussion. No testing. They express a preference for the figure-eight follow-through, and show the flat-figure-eight knot with a skull-and-crossbones.

Edelrid tests - (in German, with much of it translated into English). Test data on three knots: the flat-overhand, the double-fisherman's tied as a flat-knot (photo at right from their page), and on a new type of flat-knot. He translates it as "Triple Fisherman's", but it's not. The flat-double-fisherman's didn't invert at all in his tests. Cool! People have asked me about it, but I haven't done any tests.

5. The Outdoor Knot Book, Seattle: The Mountaineers Books.
You can probably buy a copy here; http://www.mountaineersbooks.org/Assets/ClientPages/media.aspx

And like The Mountaineers, Wikipedia is a non-profit organisation based on community activity and education. The policies of Wikipedia combine verifiability and a neutral point of view. As does Tom Moyer for descriptions above at reference 4. - citing one German and two Australian web-pages, inclusive of the one you are looking at just now. Or is Chockstone not to be considered a collective of knowledge, and hence not authoritative enough for us to remain safe on rope, too?

If not, some technical data about staying safe on rope is here;

* http://user.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/
- a page dating from April 2011 talking about Force Calculations (and related software), rescue physics, and simulation of rescue belays.

* http://caves.org/section/vertical/nh/52/SimulationOfClimbing&RescueBelays.pdf
- page 5 shows forces on an ATC when abseiling, and when belaying