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Three Sisters declared an Aboriginal Place 26-Jan-2014 At 2:21:56 PM simey

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On 26/01/2014 ithomas wrote:
>Simey
>What an appropriate topic for Australia Day. The shitload of climbs you
>mention in NT and elsewhere simply do not exist. Until a route is established
>it cannot be taken away or banned

That's a ridiculous comment. Climbs don't need to exist for authorities to ban climbing. It's not too difficult to look at a lot of cliffs and see that they would have worthwhile climbing if climbing was allowed.

>There are lots of activities that are
>not easily conducted on Aboriginal land. It's not just climbing. To gnash
>your teeth over that is to call into question the rights of determination
>inherent in those land grants. You are right about there being no easy
>answers to the question of landscape degradation. Trashed campsites are
>one small but visible example but that pales into insignificance compared
>to the degraded cattle and sheep thrashed rangelands that you drive through
>anywhere from Port Augusta to Katherine - and who owns those stations?

I don't disagree.

> And what brain fade caused you to suggest that teaching people to climb
>is the equivalent of ramming it down people's throats?

There is no brain fade, although maybe the term 'ramming it down their throats' is excessive. However I have issues with the missionary concept of waltzing into someone else's world and introducing them to something because you think it will benefit them, rather than making the effort to get to know people and learn from their world.

One of my pet hates is the world of outdoor education and how the idea of taking a group of disadvantaged students top-rope climbing for a day or two is somehow beneficial to them. For those that do connect with climbing, they rarely have the opportunity to follow up on it. It is like giving someone a Xmas present and then snatching it away afterwards. Unless you go out of your way to do many more trips away with them and provide further training so they can lead climb independently, you are not really empowering them.

>I guess you must
>think that the footy clinics organised by Kevin Sheedy are another example
>of ramming a sport down people's throats. Footy is a good example where
>a long and concerted effort by a few people, including Sheedy, has made
>enormous changes to how indigenous issues are perceived by the public.

I am not sure how Aboriginal people latched onto footy historically. They might have simply seen the game being played and started playing it themselves, before putting their own spectacular twist on things. Kevin Sheedy's involvement with indigenous players has been positive, but he has also benefited greatly from the brilliance they have bought to his teams.

>Ask the Australian of the Year if there is still racism in footy. Ask him
>if outdoor adventure activities were rammed down his throat or if he was
>stimulated and made to feel welcome because he had a very special Physical
>Education teacher (Norm Booth) at Horsham High School. Education and inclusiveness
>is the key.

I am not sure how Adam Goodes becoming a great footballer and not being a climber (despite having Mt Arapiles and the Grampians in his backyard) is supporting your argument.

>If, after being exposed to climbing, Aboriginal people wanted
>to climb on their own cliffs then that would be fine. It would not be a
>question of ethics. It would would simply be their decision.

I don't think it would be that simple. If an aboriginal local wanted to bolt a few routes up the side of Uluru for his personal pleasure, I think it would cause quite a bit of controversy!