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General Climbing Discussion

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Carrot failure @ Muline 27-Nov-2013 At 11:44:30 AM nmonteith

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On 27/11/2013 Tastrad wrote:
>No, they didn't fall out - a few were found to be loose and pulled out
>with fingers - retightened they are fine.

As I suspected. So they are fine then. I actually found when I started placing expansions I was afraid to tighten them heavily (after I snapped the head off a 10mm dynabolt doing so), so I suspect some of the loose expansion bolts were never correctly tightened anyway.

>What I don't understand is Sliamese and others taking it upon
>themselves to be the rock police and saying they would replace what they
>think are bad bolts without discussing it with first ascensionists.

You guys need to sit down and talk with each other it seems!

>I think
>the first ascensionist should have input to decide the future protection
>on a route if people are intending to change it. If the initial bolts were
>proven to be dodgy, then a reasonable person should agree to have them
>replaced. But I would draw the line at adding bolts and also changing the
>position of bolts.

Yep I agree. But there does need to be some room to move on both sides. Input does not equal "the last word".

>There is talk for instance of a grade 16 having bolts
>added so it is safer for beginners. I initially led it on wires, but then
>retrobolted with 3 bolts (99% of routes at Hillwood initially led with
>some gear have been retrobolted). Its a bit runout and you might go close
>to decking, but climbing is a dangerous sport, and people don't have to
>rope up on that route - its not my fault if someone hurts themself - they
>chose to climb it.

I'm interested to know why you would retrobolt your own route, but still make it so there is a potential ground fall. The worst bolted routes are the ones that are not immediately obvious that they are dangerous. I presume the guidebook warns people of the runout nature - even after the retrobolt?

>a first
>ascensionist should take all diligence to install the best possible gear
>he can manage/afford based on research and advice of other experienced
>practioners.

I don't agree that "afford" should be a factor. If you can't afford stainless steel for example maybe you should keep saving and buy later.

>But climbers also also need to realise they climb at their
>There are some new routes
>down here still being established with carrots and with no lower-offs by
>some climbers for several reasons - environmentally less obtrusive - and
>also a philiosophy which says they only put enough bolts in (and the type
>of bolt) to get up the route themselves, and stuff future ascensionists.

Why don't they use removable bolts then? Screwbolts - or finger tightened dynabolts also work well in this way. If they really don't want anyone to repeat their route they shouldn't be leaving bolts behind.

>Climbing has always been a bit anarchic
>and self regulated - lets leave it that way - as long as we are responsible
>in the equipping of our climbs.

Yes - I agree there shouldn't be a rule book that is enforceable. But you need to realize that breaking the rules goes both ways - you choose to bolt with whatever you want, but that also means someone else can choose to replace it with whatever they want! ;-)