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lightest carabiners that wont come off bolt plates

racingtadpole

25-Aug-2009
5:14:59 PM

Are the numbers flawed, yep.
Is anything I have said here meant to be taken too seriously, nope.

rightarmbad

25-Aug-2009
9:36:52 PM

Um, Wendy, all wire gates will fall of bolt plates, no doubt about it.
If you do not believe this then you simply do not understand the mechanism behind the phenomena.


ajfclark

25-Aug-2009
9:48:21 PM

We're talking when the draw lifts that the biner rotates until the gate is in the keyhole and the hanger lifts off, right?

Wendy

26-Aug-2009
8:18:39 AM

On 25/08/2009 ajfclark wrote:
>We're talking when the draw lifts that the biner rotates until the gate
>is in the keyhole and the hanger lifts off, right?

Thanks Andrew for providing useful clarification instead of snide remarks. I was thinking about the size of my ozs and xenonlites, which are definately not large enough to hold the plate on rather than the gate ending up in the bracket. Could it be resolved by just flipping the biner upside down or clipping it spine out so if pulled upwards, it would just slide down the spine of the biner?

Seems a pretty unlikely scenario though, unless you cross clipped your twin ropes under that draw! And also if your biner is doing this, it will load it across it's much weaker axis. Chrispy was telling me the other day he saw a screwgate break under the weight of a schoolgirl when it was loaded across the biner. If we try really hard, we could manage to unclip almost anything. I can wiggle a biner til it unclips from a fixed hanger and once in a blue moon, I go to set a wire and somehow twist the draw so that the draw unclips from the wire and I get a shock as the draw comes flying down on me! And as previously mentioned, between different bolts, brackets and biners, all sorts can come off carrots. Carrots aren't exactly the best bolts are they?

racingtadpole

26-Aug-2009
9:12:31 AM

To add something useful to the discussion, I once saw a Geordie rack up a stack of rubber O-rings with some bolt plates. He reckons where he had room he would use them as retainers to hold the plate on. How? I dont really know, but he reckoned it could be done on most plates.


ajfclark

26-Aug-2009
9:36:38 AM

On 26/08/2009 Wendy wrote:
>Thanks Andrew for providing useful clarification instead of snide remarks.

No problems.

> I was thinking about the size of my ozs and xenonlites, which are definately not large enough to hold the plate on rather than the gate ending up in the bracket. Could it be resolved by just flipping the biner upside down or clipping it spine out so if pulled upwards, it would just slide down the spine of the biner?

I've not sat and played with wiregates and bolt plates a lot, but the little I have done and seen seems to indicate that 45 vs 90 plates, the particular bolt, the rope path and the length and stiffness of the draw all play a huge part in whether this is frighteningly easy to do by flicking the rope or quite difficult. Depending on what you do with the rope I think any gate that doesn't fill the keyhole sufficiently is suspect regardless of how you clip it and the more the rope flicks the draws the worse your chances of the plate staying on.

>Seems a pretty unlikely scenario though, unless you cross clipped your twin ropes under that draw! And also if your biner is doing this, it will load it across it's much weaker axis.

I've seen short, stiff draws do it all by themselves, when rope just pulls tight as the leader pulls up the rope to clip something and ping off they go.

>Chrispy was telling me the other day he saw a screwgate break under the weight of a schoolgirl when it was loaded across the biner. If we try really hard, we could manage to unclip almost anything.

While we're talking breaking biners, have a look at the strength of nose hooked biners hung up on a bolt: link

>And as previously mentioned, between different bolts, brackets and biners, all sorts can come off carrots. Carrots aren't exactly the best bolts are they?

While I don't think carrots are the best bolts, they are around and they do have distinct limitations. I think understanding those limitations and the possible failure modes is important.


ajfclark

26-Aug-2009
9:38:41 AM

On 26/08/2009 racingtadpole wrote:
>To add something useful to the discussion, I once saw a Geordie rack up a stack of rubber O-rings with some bolt plates. He reckons where he had room he would use them as retainers to hold the plate on. How? I dont really know, but he reckoned it could be done on most plates.

I'd guess pop the plate on then an O-ring over the head of the bolt. This would stop the plate moving forward along the bolt towards the head and effectively make the head of the bolt larger wouldn't it?

Wendy

26-Aug-2009
10:47:24 AM

On 26/08/2009 ajfclark wrote:

>While we're talking breaking biners, have a look at the strength of nose
>hooked biners hung up on a bolt: link

That was scary. Still more bonus points to non-hooknose biners.

racingtadpole

26-Aug-2009
11:53:19 AM

Yeah very scary.

The rings he was using looked a bit big to just put over the bolt. I was assuming he would put it on the bolt, put the plate on and then pull the other end of the ring over top of plate and the head of the bolt. Rgardless of how it was done it would be fiddly.

widewetandslippery

26-Aug-2009
12:20:07 PM

Wouldn't heavier counterwieghted biners be better then?

One Day Hero

26-Aug-2009
12:49:16 PM

On 26/08/2009 Wendy wrote:
Carrots aren't exactly
>the best bolts are they?

Carrots are fine. Why have I never had a problem with them in 15yrs of clipping?........maybe they are an effective means of siphoning stupid people towards sport crags. If you can't operate a bolt plate safely, stay the f--- away from trad!

racingtadpole

26-Aug-2009
1:28:28 PM

Cant say I've ever had any issue with them either (apart from finding the odd manky one).


jkane

26-Aug-2009
1:36:29 PM

I was sitting on top of a pinnacle once and fiddling with the bolt plate to see if I could get it off. It had a screw gate biner on it. Maybe the head of the bolt was a bit small but I managed to get it off fairly easily. Then I realised that it was my safety... (In my head, I was a cartoon character sawing off the branch that I was standing on).

Anyone want to come climbing with me? We'll go somewhere with bolts so you'll be perfectly SAFE.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

26-Aug-2009
2:42:29 PM

On 25/08/2009 Wendy wrote:
>the straw that breaks the camels back,
>thus meaning that Evan's soul will never be able to join him on holiday.

Hereyagoevanbb Igotaspareoneforya


wallwombat

26-Aug-2009
4:23:21 PM

These are apparently the lightest keylock biners on the market and they are on sale at the moment.

http://www.backcountrygear.com/catalog/climbdetail.cfm/CMP445

Might get myself some, although the lighter my rack gets, the bigger my beer gut gets so it all seems to even up.

Winston Smith

26-Aug-2009
4:59:26 PM

For what it's worth I've bought PFH brand hangers - 45s and 90s - that carried tags specifically warning against using them with wire gates.

There are 36 messages in this topic.