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BOLT WARNING - Pierces Pass, Blue Mountains

mikl law

21-Jan-2009
5:14:54 PM

Stainless typically has better strength and ductilty than 'carrot' grade mild steel. Apart from catastrophic stress corrosion cracking (warm tropical conditions) it should be better than mild steel.


nmonteith

21-Jan-2009
5:39:33 PM

Safe working loads* from Ramset datasheets for these expansion bolts in the softest concrete they rate.

8mm trubolts Tensile 4.6kn Shear 4.9kn (similar to the ones which failed at Pierces Pass)
10mm dynabolts Tensile 6.1kn Shear 6.3kn (8mm bolt inside 10mm sheath)
12mm dynabolts Tensile 6.9kn Shear 7.9kn (normal sized dynabolts used in Grampians, Araps ect)

* I couldn't find the exact figure - but usually a safe working load can be converted to 'breaking strength' by multiplying by a factor of 3 - ie a tensile of 4.6kn would be rated as 13.8kn if it was labeled like our climbing gear is (actual breaking strength)

So, the 8mm truebolt design should (in theory) is able to hold a hefty fall if installed correctly.

Richard Delaney

21-Jan-2009
7:01:38 PM

I think Safe Working Load or Working Load Limit and its relation to Breaking Strain
depends on country, industry, and application. For rope work supporting 'live' loads the
safety factor is typically 8.

Thus 30 kn for 11mm rope divided by 8 = 3.75 kn which is about 375kg as a static
hanging mass.

Breaking Strain = Safe Working Load x Safety Factor

TonyB

22-Jan-2009
7:28:25 AM

On 21/01/2009 mikl law wrote:
>I think their strength as a piece of steel is ok, but may be marginal
>in fatigue terms (currently unknown).

Fatigue strengths for steel are defined for a million cycles. I can't see this is an issue for climbing.


nmonteith

22-Jan-2009
7:44:47 AM

On 22/01/2009 TonyB wrote:
>Fatigue strengths for steel are defined for a million cycles. I can't
>see this is an issue for climbing.

Obviously hasn't seen a weekend of dogging action at the Glen! I think what Mike meant was fatigue in the rock - not in the metal. The soft bluies rock crumbles much quicker than any steel.

hipster

22-Jan-2009
9:32:09 AM

On 21/01/2009 nmonteith wrote:
>Just a thought...

>New routers in the Bluies also use these 10mm dynabolts to aid down their
>new projects when bolting - or to set anchors on the top of the cliff which
>can be used immediately. They are everywhere - especially where Martin
>Pircher was involved!

If you're using them just to pull you in to the cliff when bolting and they fail you don't die though. 12mm dynabolts are my preference when establishing anchors, maybe that's just me. These, again, are temporary. Why bring Martin into it??


nmonteith

22-Jan-2009
9:46:46 AM

On 22/01/2009 hipster wrote:
>If you're using them just to pull you in to the cliff when bolting and
>they fail you don't die though.

You could still take unexpected large swings which can cause ropes to be cut. The point is they don't fail when installed correctly. I've taken some hefty pendulum falls onto them when bolting traverses - very similar to lead falls.

> 12mm dynabolts are my preference when establishing
>anchors, maybe that's just me. These, again, are temporary.

Temporarily good - thus Mike's comment about fatigue being a factor for why they shouldn't be used as 'proper' bolts in the Bluies.

>Why bring Martin
>into it??

I'm just using him as an example of some pretty impressive lines of 'bolting' bolts I've seen around the place. I remember seeing a line of them at Bowens that was butt ugly! Matty Brooks down in Vic was also a keen user of the dynabolt. Take a look at his fine work around Amnesty and VD Land for example. I don't think he had a trad rack... :-)


nmonteith

22-Jan-2009
9:54:20 AM

p.s. - i'm not advocating using 8mm bolts in the Bluies, I'm just trying to point out that they can be relativity safe. Big fat glue in's installed by true blue Aussies is the way to go. :-)

rols

22-Jan-2009
12:13:18 PM

The loading regime experienced by a climbing anchor would definitely fall into the low cycle fatigue category so the manufacturers ratings should suffice in determining the actual suitability of the bolt itself. The manufacture of steel bolt is significantly more controllable than either the type and condition of rock or the accuracy of the holes. There is going to be significant variability in the condition of holes drilled by even the most conscientious climber and for each hole the specific behaviour of rock under low cycle fatigue will be generally unknown.


nmonteith

26-Jan-2009
10:09:45 PM

Someone mentioned that Ch7 (Today Tonight?) had a story on the accident on friday night. Anyone catch it?


Sabu

26-Jan-2009
10:22:45 PM

I can't find anything on their website. They did run a story about base jumping recently
though.

Winston Smith

26-Jan-2009
10:33:46 PM

That would be the thread entitled: "bolting in the news"


nmonteith

26-Jan-2009
10:43:09 PM

opps. why didn't people use this topic.

Onsight

1-Feb-2009
10:16:13 PM

UPDATE:

A quick update on the situation at Pierces Pass...

Regarding the route where Nick's accident occurred, some time ago six bolts were removed from it to prevent any further parties getting onto this route at the sixth pitch.

The route is not simply a variant to the upper pitches of BBB; it is a fully independent route starting from the ground.

Yesterday Mike Law, Andy Richardson and myself fixed rope down the entire 270m route and removed ALL of the bolts.

The Parks closure sign at the car park has been removed.

We now know who bolted the route (Croatians). I have a lot more info about this whole thing. I'm writing an updated report which I plan to publish on my blog in the next few days.

Cheers.

Onsight

1-Feb-2009
10:25:15 PM

On 15/01/2009 macciza wrote:
>Also be aware that the Police penalties are likely to be far higher -
>as it is possibly a crime scene
>I am starting to doubt that you did any of this legally given the nature
>of your report and photos.

Macciza, get your facts straight and learn some manners. Your opinionated dribble is insulting in the circumstances to say the least.


nmonteith

1-Feb-2009
11:54:29 PM

Great work guys. I look forward to reading all the facts soon. I presume this means Bucket Bunny Buttress is back open for business then?


nmonteith

2-Feb-2009
1:45:20 PM

We just got a very positive email from Blue Mountains ranger Neil Stone...
----------------------------------
You may already know that Simon Carter, Mike Law and Andy Richardson were successful in removing all of the remaining dodgy bolts on the BBB variant on Saturday.

We at NPWS are very appreciative of the time and expertise of the guys in completing this task on a very hot day, and expect the climbing community would be even more pleased. I have taken the closure sign down at Walls Lookout car park and the BBB route is officially open again.

It was a pleasure to deal with you all on this - please get in touch in the future regarding any other issues regarding climbing or other matters of concern to climbers in the upper mountains. Always good to get feedback from people out there doing things, and to simplify lines of communication. Hopefully the circumstances of Nick’s tragic death will lead to improved education of climbers regarding bolting and improved safety consciousness out on the cliffs.

Thanks and regards,

Neil Stone

devlin66

2-Feb-2009
1:49:46 PM

Oh boy! Neil, Can you get Neil Stone to ring some of the rangers up here (SEQ) and have a good chat with them. That sort of communication would a be akin to a polar axis shift of the earth.

Good job on the clean up fellas. Very proactive.

Onsight

3-Feb-2009
5:31:47 PM

MY NEW REPORT WITH LOTS MORE INFO CAN NOW BE SEEN HERE.

.


Sabu

3-Feb-2009
11:03:56 PM

So are the climbers who set the route now aware of what happened?

There are 196 messages in this topic.