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BOLT WARNING - Pierces Pass, Blue Mountains


Robb

16-Jan-2009
3:06:11 PM

Out of interest, does the bunny bucket route have glue in carrots or bash ins?
Good report by the way simon. it clarifies and highlights alot of important issues.

On the topic of local bolting ethics, pretty much all the old carrots (only a handful remaining) at Moonarie have been replaced with either glue-ins or expansions and we have adopted a bash-in carrot free ethic. A few years ago, a couple of victorians put up new route using some bash-in carrots after being explicitly asked not to use carrots. When asked why, they said that they didnt bring the correct size bolts for the drill bits. Not a valid excuse in my opinion.
Do it properly or not at all. Apparently it was a classic new route with great climbing....Pity


nmonteith

16-Jan-2009
3:30:40 PM

On 16/01/2009 beefy wrote:
>Out of interest, does the bunny bucket route have glue in carrots or bash
>ins?

Bash-in's - just like the bolts on Hotel Cali.


DaCrux

16-Jan-2009
3:39:18 PM

They only bolted the two new routes above Lunch Ledge. It seems they used “spit” expansion bolts which are even shorter than the ones on BBB-RHV and should not be used in sandstone. These guys were fully aware they would need to be replaced by local climbers – but they didn’t use glue-in bolts because they were in a hurry and didn’t have enough time to wait for the glue to dry.

Btw Neil I never implied their bolts were responsible for Nick’s death. That’s why I asked if the article I found was even relevant. I simply told them their behaviour was irresponsible.


nmonteith

16-Jan-2009
3:49:17 PM

On 16/01/2009 DaCrux wrote:
> but they didn’t use glue-in bolts
>because they were in a hurry and didn’t have enough time to wait for the
>glue to dry.

They didn't have a spare 20 minutes?! ha ha! They must have been very impatient...


DaCrux

16-Jan-2009
3:51:45 PM

supposedly you can't work routes on freshly glued in bolts :P


tnd

16-Jan-2009
3:58:44 PM

On 16/01/2009 DaCrux wrote:
>...but they didn’t use glue-in bolts
>because they were in a hurry and didn’t have enough time to wait for the
>glue to dry.

They're being disingenuous there. Hilti HY150 - full strength in 50 mins, perhaps two hours in mountains winter temps.

mikl law

16-Jan-2009
4:46:52 PM

I suspect they just didn't believe the locals, something I was tempted to do in the US (In fact I put up 2 FA's in J Tree on carrots in the early 80s, becuase I knew carrots were better than the Yosemite split pins they were using).

I think the "Lunch Ledge Poles" are raising our ire by unfair association with the lethal bolts nearby (also placed by guys didn't believe the locals).

The "Lunch Ledge Poles" sins are "only" to use a bolt type which isn't trusted here (but is probably ok, at least short-term), and use non stainless bolts (expansion bolts rust much faster than carrots) and hangers, but this isn't really an issue for 10 years. Because of these unknowns, chopping was a good move. If they'd asked nicely I'm sure somone would have helped them create a stainless masterpiece.

I like the notion of putting a big page explaining what to do in the next guide, and on a few websites here and OS. I shoud have a 50 page guide to soft rock bolting done soon to go with it.


nmonteith

16-Jan-2009
4:51:21 PM

I'm happy to host anything on the Safer Cliffs website... I havn't updated much on that site for the last 4 years.

mikl law

16-Jan-2009
5:12:16 PM

If we did some testing of all these possible bolt types (and tested some typical installations) I'd be happy to change bolts. It would be a blessing if appropriate expansion bolts were good. This would mean we could mix bolt types on a belay ( maybe a U and a big expansion bolt), which reduces the chance of an entire anchor failing by the same mechanism. A U and carrot anchor meets this aim, but a carrot is always a short term (20 - 50 year) solution.


tnd

16-Jan-2009
5:32:19 PM

Good idea to have a page on the Safer Cliffs site and then links to that from other sites e.g. Rockies, Chockstone etc.

A page in the next guide book will be invaluable, most visitors will buy/borrow a copy of that.

TonyB

19-Jan-2009
2:08:13 PM

On 16/01/2009 tnd wrote:
>On 15/01/2009 DaCrux wrote:
>>http://www.wspinanie.pl/serwis/200811/30australia4.php
>
>Won't these fu*kers be pleased to learn that their routes no longer exist.
>The photo of the idiot leaning out over the cliff edge with his mate holding
>him back shows how safety conscious they are.

The web site seems to indicate that these guys were not acting as individuals but representing Alpinus as their "expedition team". Is this correct ?

Onsight

19-Jan-2009
2:39:01 PM

On 19/01/2009 TonyB wrote:
>The web site seems to indicate that these guys were not acting as individuals
>but representing Alpinus as their "expedition team". Is this correct ?

Just to be clear, those Polish guys are NOT the ones who bolted near BBB. In fact they were not Polish at all.

grangrump

19-Jan-2009
3:16:10 PM

If you're going to wait for a coroner's report, it seems that it will be a few years coming:

SMH 19 January 2009 The death of a driver in a Sydney car park plunge was "an accident waiting to happen", a coroner says. At Glebe Coroner's Court today, the coroner handed down his findings following an inquest into Mr Lee's death in March 2006.


garbie

19-Jan-2009
4:06:18 PM

On 19/01/2009 Onsight wrote:
>On 19/01/2009 TonyB wrote:
>>The web site seems to indicate that these guys were not acting as individuals
>>but representing Alpinus as their "expedition team". Is this correct
>?
>
>Just to be clear, those Polish guys are NOT the ones who bolted near BBB.
>In fact they were not Polish at all.
>

Who were they then?


rodw

19-Jan-2009
5:04:22 PM

Sounds like an good ole chockstone lynch mob is forming..why am I not surprised...lets all beat the war drums without the facts and point the finger at someone if it all makes you feel better.


garbie

20-Jan-2009
9:08:01 AM

On 19/01/2009 rodw wrote:
>Sounds like an good ole chockstone lynch mob is forming..why am I not surprised...lets
>all beat the war drums without the facts and point the finger at someone
>if it all makes you feel better.

Don't want names, just wondering if they're still around, or still bolting, I'd presume not.


nmonteith

21-Jan-2009
2:28:12 PM

moved from Journo thread....

On 21/01/2009 mikl law wrote:
>I think they aren't suitable for soft rock,

agreed

>and even with care, probably
>wouldn't hold any fall and would be dodgy under bodyweight with any outwards
>force component.

i disagree. they would certainly hold a small to medium sized fall and would hold on outwards force. There is a lot more reason why they would hold compared to a carrot i would think.


nmonteith

21-Jan-2009
2:34:07 PM

Just a thought...

10mm dynabolts rely on an 8mm threaded rod in their core as the 'bolt' which is what the hanger is attached to and what you fall on. These 10mm dynabolts have been used for quite a few years at various crags - i know i placed quite few of them in the Glasshouses about 15 years - and fell on them repeatedly. I've seen them at Buffalo and in the Grampians (I think Manic Depressive is bolted with them as well as a few routes at VD land). In principle they should have the same 'strength' as these 8mm truebolts - but being a dynabolt they can be removed more easily and the expansion range is larger.

New routers in the Bluies also use these 10mm dynabolts to aid down their new projects when bolting - or to set anchors on the top of the cliff which can be used immediately. They are everywhere - especially where Martin Pircher was involved!

I certainly don't recommend using them to bolt new routes - they are too small to take repeated falls as the thread can be more easily damaged - but they certainly will holds falls in my very real experience. :-)


pmonks

21-Jan-2009
4:58:01 PM

Has anyone investigated failure scenarios for different kinds of bolt? In particular whether any of them have "graceful degradation" characteristics (ie. you can see it's f'ed before it actually becomes a death trap)?

I've always wondered whether stainless was worse in this regard than mild steel, given that SS tends to snap suddenly and catastrophically vs mild steel which gets rusty, droopy and generally manky looking over time.

mikl law

21-Jan-2009
5:13:07 PM

On 21/01/2009 nmonteith wrote:
>10mm dynabolts rely on an 8mm threaded rod in their core as the 'bolt'
>which is what the hanger is attached to and what you fall on.

>I certainly don't recommend using them to bolt new routes - they are too
>small to take repeated falls as the thread can be more easily damaged -
>but they certainly will holds falls in my very real experience. :-)

I think their strength as a piece of steel is ok, but may be marginal in fatigue terms (currently unknown). The holding power in good sandstone is good, but once the rock around the expanding bit starts crushing in compression all bets are off. This is also unknown.

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