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The Tower - Ground Fall

dalai

2-Jan-2007
9:58:28 PM

On 2/01/2007 bomber pro wrote:
>if camouflaged they would'nt see them in the first place ,just the steel
>sticking out of the lookouts ie the
>safety fence.

Good to see the irony of the scenario suggested was completely missed on you!

Point being people who complain about bolts are usual the ones who are happy to wander on huge man made paths through the bush and gladly use steel railings and fencing at lookouts...

Bolting discussions don't belong in the accident reports. Post your arguments in regards to bolting in the Safer Cliffs section.


alrob

2-Jan-2007
11:13:59 PM

On 2/01/2007 dalai wrote:

>Good to see the irony of the scenario suggested was completely missed
>on you!

hahaha, i get it dalai! nice one. very clever! irony.....pure comedy gold!


Cool Hand Lock

3-Jan-2007
8:55:22 AM

I've never heard of anyone complaining about bolts. Apart from climbers.


gordoste

3-Jan-2007
8:59:45 AM

there are some damn ugly ones at the monolith at buffalo (i believe a queenslander is responsible)


cruze

3-Jan-2007
10:47:37 AM

If you want to see some 'ugly' bolts you should see what is on the cliffs around the ACT. A walk to Gibralter is/was (before the recent rebolt) a step back in time, where one can marvel at the creativity of the climbers of yesteryear and ponder 'is that really possible with an angle grinder/hacksaw/drill?' ;)

dalai

3-Jan-2007
11:05:31 AM

On 3/01/2007 Cool Hand Lock wrote:
>I've never heard of anyone complaining about bolts. Apart from climbers.

One non climber -check out posts from Grampians enviroment activist dinkum and read the comment section and his posts.

http://www.chockstone.org/Forum/Forum.asp?Action=Profile&UserName=dinkum


adski

3-Jan-2007
11:13:11 AM

go the ethics. as long as vic has stupid bolting issues people are allways going to come second, i guess people's lives arn't as important as making sure the climbs are safe.

good on you safer cliffs victoria keep up the crap work.

john s

3-Jan-2007
1:34:39 PM

On 3/01/2007 Cool Hand Lock wrote:
>I've never heard of anyone complaining about bolts. Apart from climbers.

You should talk to bushwalkers and naturalists and rangers when they are off duty. Many of them don't like finding bolts in places that they go to get away from roads and lookouts ...


BigMike

3-Jan-2007
1:41:40 PM

On 3/01/2007 john s wrote:
>>I've never heard of anyone complaining about bolts. Apart from climbers.
>
I've had several interesting chats with bushwalkers on the popular path below Shipley Upper in the Blue Mts.

``It's such a nice piece of rock and you've ruined it with those bolts,'' one matronly woman told me.

In the friendliest possible way I pointed out that the path we were standing on was far more intrusive, esp when lined by steel safety railings towards the left side of the crag ... not to mention the big road and parking lot up above where she'd parked her car ... I hope she at least saw my point ...

But in the eyes of the average punter, we ``need'' scenic walking paths, while bolts are an abomination...


gordoste

3-Jan-2007
1:44:19 PM

Does gibraltar rock have a walking track passing under the climbs? If so carrots are IMHO a good solution as they are often difficult to locate even when you are looking from the bottom of the climb. Hangers tend to stand out a bit more but obviously if you are taking steps to camouflage them it's not going to be a problem. I just wince whenever I see a hanger that is totally different colour to the rock and is in obvious view from a walking track. Not just because others complain, but I think we do have a part to play in preserving natural beauty (especially in national parks). Following logically from this, if you are bolting a line on some kind of landmark you should make extra effort to reduce the visual impact - perhaps using carrots, using fewer bolts, using trad gear and minimising use of chalk.
It's a bit of a moot point nowadays as most landmarks have already been climbed.

BTW I think SCV have done a great job balancing visual impact, ethics, and tradition against the safety of climbers.


rodw

3-Jan-2007
1:48:30 PM

>You should talk to bushwalkers and naturalists and rangers when they are
>off duty. Many of them don't like finding bolts in places that they go
>to get away from roads and lookouts ...

As they tramped over plants and stuff to get there???...but thats different because thats what THEY do to have fun.......


BigMike

3-Jan-2007
2:10:24 PM

On 3/01/2007 gordoste wrote:
> minimising use of
>chalk.

Good luck with THAT!


skink

3-Jan-2007
2:17:03 PM

coloured chalk anyone?

dalai

3-Jan-2007
2:18:35 PM

It's been tried. Pigments supposedly did more damage to the rock...


Phil Box

3-Jan-2007
3:48:19 PM

I went for a walk up the hill at Pomona on Queenslands Sunshine Coast recently. This is the mountain where they conduct a king of the mountain race every year. The record is 15 minutes from the township centre to the top and back. Heh, it took me an hour from the carpark at the base. Anyway I was absolutely horrified at the monumental masonry work that some thoughtful soul has performed to make the track easier.

Sets of galvanised steel staircase units have been installed not to mention the numerous steps that have been cut in the rock with what looks like a mining drill and jackhammer. Quite bizare when you think about the nat parks guys complaining about a very few innocent pieces of non rusting hardware installed in cliff faces that by and large a bushwalker will never see.


cruze

3-Jan-2007
4:16:47 PM

Up near Ben Cairn (a few km down the road) is a hang-gliding ramp next to the road. There happens to be a massive clearing in the trees (temperate rain-forest?!) all around. Coincidence? I think it would be part of Yarra Ranges NP.

kieranl

4-Jan-2007
10:48:11 AM

Hate to intrude on the party of chestbeating about carrots and whingeing about NP hypocrisy but this is not a case of fixed gear failure as I understand it. The failure was of gear placed by a climber during the course of the ascent.
People have been clipping carrots for donkey's years so it's not an unusual activity.
Why did the hanger and draw come off the bolt? Why did that circumstance arise? How can this be prevented in future?
These are the questions we should be considering.
Carrots are still out there and they will be for some considerable time so everyone needs to understand how to avoid this situation.


muki

4-Jan-2007
12:07:36 PM

On 4/01/2007 kieranl wrote:
How can this be prevented in future?
These are the questions we should be considering.

"The thing to remember is don't use wire gate runners to connect to hanger plates!"
From an earlier post made by me on this thread.

"the second is dont place carrots, place proper fixed protection

kieranl

4-Jan-2007
12:57:29 PM

On 4/01/2007 bomber pro wrote:
>"The thing to remember is don't use wire gate runners to connect to hanger
>plates!"
>From an earlier post made by me on this thread.
Yes, I saw that post and agree with it, but what is the reason in this case? Is it particular to wire gates in that the gate itself was in the bracket or is it an issue with a narrow body profile?
Yes, do not use wire gates with keyhole hangers because of the risk of the gate getting into the bracket. More generally though people need to be aware of the risks inherent in using small diameter karabiners with keyhole hangers.
Why did the climber clip with the karabiner in question: was it because they weren't aware of the risk or were they clipping in haste because they were about to fall off or were they just being casual or weren't they aware that the climb required hangers before starting.


muki

4-Jan-2007
1:27:32 PM

The climber in this case did not know that the wire gate could come up into the bolt plate, and allow it to
come off.
All low volume/profile/wheight carabiners have the capacity to fail this way.
If the gap that is normaly kept shut by the diameter of the gate, is reduced by using a wire gate or other
low profile biner then it fails to keep the plate secure,It falls off or worse it looks like it's still on but is
hanging on by it's edge only, leting the leader think it's ok to keep climbing higher.
nuts that have been slung on carrots,and then "zipped" up, can also come off with enough outward force.
be aware, be informed,be safe.It's your life!

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