Goto Chockstone Home

  Guide
  Gallery
  Tech Tips
  Articles
  Reviews
  Dictionary
  Links
  Forum
  Search
  About

      Sponsored By
      ROCK
   HARDWARE

  Shop
Chockstone Photography
Australian Landscape Photography by Michael Boniwell
Australian Landscape Prints





Chockstone Forum - Accidents & Injuries

Report Accidents and Injuries

 Page 2 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 38
Author
25-26/12/2019 Candlestick accident
gfdonc
6-Sep-2020
9:00:18 AM
So much interest in this sea-stack lately, I thought you'd like me re-posting the TR from 2015:
http://www.chockstone.org/Forum/Forum.asp?Action=Display&ForumID=2&MessageID=10411&Replies=6

deadbudgy
7-Sep-2020
12:31:59 PM
On 5-Sep-2020 patto wrote:

>
>The Megajul I believe failed to provide much appreciable friction as its
>depth is just too shallow. Try it if you have one lying around, it performs
>exceedingly poorly with ultra thin ropes.

There is another version of the Megajul specifically for use with thinner ropes called the Microjul. Either way, I've found the Megajul not a straight forward device to use, either belaying or abseiling. Is far from a good choice of device for the inexperienced in my opinion.

gordoste
7-Sep-2020
2:23:14 PM
On 5-Sep-2020 patto wrote:
>davedave, thank you for posting about the incident.
>
>I think people should tone down some of the rhetoric here. It is hardly
>encouraging for people to post incident report if people start getting
>stuck into the participants or groups they represent. Most of us here
>have had an epic of some nature. Sometimes from the unexpected, sometimes
>when we've known that we were pushing the limits.
>
>Yep some mistakes were made. (In particular the group size/experience
>and the 6mm rope) But from my understanding is that the group did have
>some people of notable experience. They did manage to mostly self rescue
>by swimming, tyroleaning and then aiding out. From my understanding they
>would have gotten back to camp early that morning themselves had the PLB
>not been triggered.
>
>(The group had mobile reception. I was hearing about this epic as it
>was occurring. Yes they bit off more than they could chew, but they seemed
>like they handled the situation appropriately. This has also been posted
>and discussed here before, but not in this amount of detail.)

I agree some people do go overboard and I have done some stupid things too... well, really stupid in hindsight. They gave the Tyrolean a try and realised it wasn't going to work, which is fine - this wouldn't be a big deal if (for example) everyone involved knew how to abseil and jumar. If a serious accident occurred to one of the leaders, this can make the difference between a single casualty and multiple casualties.
The biggest problem (IMO) happened before anyone got on a rope here. Beginners should only be taken to controlled environments where weather and access are not an issue, and you can take your time with proper instruction.
One of the reasons clubs exist is to give people interested in climbing the opportunity to learn safely. That clearly didn't happen here and the reason I'm posting is that if people just focus on the obvious technical issues, then this point could be missed in whatever findings come out of the club's review of the incident.
Clubs can't stop people trying to Tyrolean on 6mm cord, but they should be able to stop them taking beginners along with them when they do it :)
One Day Hero
9-Sep-2020
2:11:54 PM
On 7-Sep-2020 gordoste wrote:
>One of the reasons clubs exist is to give people interested in climbing
>the opportunity to learn safely. That clearly didn't happen here and the
>reason I'm posting is that if people just focus on the obvious technical
>issues, then this point could be missed in whatever findings come out of
>the club's review of the incident.

Gordo hit the nail on the head. This incident irks me more than the usual avoidable bumbly shit show, so I'm going to give a full critique from technical stuff ups all the way through to the systematic failings inherent in climbing clubs.

1) 6mm rap line

This is a specialized twin rope/cord designed for alpinism. If there is any info from Edelrid suggesting that rapping on a single strand is within scope please add the link, because that does not appear to be a recommended use of the product. I am absolutely flabbergasted that numerous people on this thread have expressed a blase acceptance of rapping on a single strand of 6mm. In hot and/or wet conditions, rapping on two strands of 8mm rope can get pretty hairy. I wouldn't dream of deliberately rapping on a single strand of 8mm, and the idea of rapping on a single 6mm strand makes my hair stand on end.

As to the benefit, I can maybe understand why Colin Haley would risk using this thing on 36hr 5000 vertical meter slogfests in Patagonia. The Candlestick is 1.5hrs pretty flat walk from the car, and they had seven people to carry stuff. The correct rope for the Candlestick fixed rap/Tyrolean is a 10.5mm static with a couple of tubular rope protectors. A slightly thinner static or a chunky dynamic would also be acceptable. There is no excuse for using this joke cord, it was grossly unsafe and I am truly shocked at how many people are glossing over it.

2) Location

The Candlestick is mountaineering. Three pitches of gr16 sounds like an easy day at Arapiles, but the difference in commitment is vast. Due to the lack of mountaineering in Australia, it's fairly common for bumblies to be completely ignorant when it comes to objective risk and commitment. Loose rock, the Southern Ocean, and speed/ease of retreat are the relevant concerns, compounded by the decision to climb in a stupidly large group.

3) Group size

The illusion of safety in numbers is a pervasive theme with uni bumblies. Two completely independent parties of two is probably best in remote locations, any more than that will likely have negative implications for safety. A group of five with at least one totally dependent beginner is a nightmare.

The local rock is quite prone to shedding blocks (Paul Pritchard got his head caved in just twenty meters away). One person on a belay ledge has some ability to dodge rocks dislodged by the leader. Four people crowded onto the same ledge present a bigger target and have no room to maneuver.

The major problem with large group size is the increased time required for retreat. Two competent people should be able to safely retreat from anywhere on the Candlestick and be back on the mainland in less than an hour, without going near the water. For this group the escape time was huge. Any bad weather, big swell, injury, could have resulted in fatalities from exposure or drowning because their retreat time was huge. The ability to move quickly when required is absolutely crucial in these sort of locations.

4) Informed Consent

There is no way I would take climbers of limited experience to The Candlestick and would quite like to hear from some climbing guides as to whether they would ever consider taking clients there.

I am a firm believer in climbers being able to take whatever risks they choose, as long as they have the experience necessary to make informed decisions. That's why it's standard practice to introduce beginners via extremely low commitment/low risk crags. Newbs are in no position to make judgments about their own safety, so massive prudence from the more experienced climbers is the only conscionable path.

The most appalling aspect of this trip is the risk which was heaped onto inexperienced climbers by people who were cos-playing as climbing guides.

5) Choosing to continue with an injured beginner.

Just fuch this decision. It's so bad it doesn't require explanation.

6) If the epirb hadn't been triggered

Patto's suggestion that the group would have made it back to camp in the early hours of the morning had a rescue not been initiated is naive and irritating. This sounds like the start of an accident report. A large group of bumblies jugging on loosish rock, on top of each other, in the dark, over the Southern Ocean is completely out of control. So many things could have gone wrong, and it is completely unacceptable to have been in that position in the first place.

7) The general shitfuchery of Uni/State Climbing Clubs-

Would you take driving lessons from someone who first sat behind the wheel two years ago? The idea that someone can go from raw beginner to "trip leader" in a couple of years is abhorrent to me, but the uni club system takes it as given due to the short lifespan of members. Most climbers require at least some loose supervision for the first six months, then need to spend the next couple of years slowly pushing out the boundaries of their experience while fully concentrating on their own safety. There is no reserve during this phase for managing the safety of raw beginners.

It's a uni club paradox which seems to be persistent and universal. From inside the bubble, two year gumbies look like experienced pros. Meanwhile there is no motivation for competent people to hang around and put their own climbing ambitions aside in order to offer free guiding services to a never ending stream of newbs.


kieranl
9-Sep-2020
2:30:33 PM
One Day Hero : +1
gfdonc
9-Sep-2020
2:48:52 PM
I have to agree, +2.
When we went, we had 4 capable experienced leaders with (I estimate) at least 80 years of experience between us, and were still paranoid enough to double-check every step.
Not a place to learn the basics.
Olbert
9-Sep-2020
5:02:26 PM
On 9-Sep-2020 One Day Hero wrote:

>1) 6mm rap line
>
>This is a specialized twin rope/cord designed for alpinism. If there is
>any info from Edelrid suggesting that rapping on a single strand is within
>scope please add the link, because that does not appear to be a recommended
>use of the product. I am absolutely flabbergasted that numerous people
>on this thread have expressed a blase acceptance of rapping on a single
>strand of 6mm. In hot and/or wet conditions, rapping on two strands of
>8mm rope can get pretty hairy. I wouldn't dream of deliberately rapping
>on a single strand of 8mm, and the idea of rapping on a single 6mm strand
>makes my hair stand on end.
>
>As to the benefit, I can maybe understand why Colin Haley would risk using
>this thing on 36hr 5000 vertical meter slogfests in Patagonia. The Candlestick
>is 1.5hrs pretty flat walk from the car, and they had seven people to carry
>stuff. The correct rope for the Candlestick fixed rap/Tyrolean is a 10.5mm
>static with a couple of tubular rope protectors. A slightly thinner static
>or a chunky dynamic would also be acceptable. There is no excuse for using
>this joke cord, it was grossly unsafe and I am truly shocked at how many
>people are glossing over it.

A good example of group think I reckon. Without thinking too much or looking into it, I assumed the 6mm tag line was somehow designed for it, not withstanding the lack of rope protectors.
dan_b
10-Sep-2020
8:07:59 AM
On 9-Sep-2020 Olbert wrote:
>On 9-Sep-2020 One Day Hero wrote:
>
>>1) 6mm rap line
>
>A good example of group think I reckon. Without thinking too much or looking
>into it, I assumed the 6mm tag line was somehow designed for it, not withstanding
>the lack of rope protectors.

I glossed over this too. I've never rapped on cord this thin. Also, thanks ODH, I always enjoy your analyses (and style of feedback, even when others don't!).


sbm
10-Sep-2020
8:27:28 AM
Resurrecting my account because I just have to post this...How about a Tyrolean on a 3mm tech cord that you flew over by drone!? It's Sketchy Andy of course, still alive and at it somehow.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E9SdfdRD0WQ

Ryan Jenks later pulled that cord to failure at the knot at like 4kn, and measured the force on the Tyrolean at 2-3kn. Aaaaaaah.
dan_b
10-Sep-2020
10:55:58 AM
Cheers SBM.

I just went out to the gear shed and measured some of my accessory cord. What I was picturing in my mind as 6 was actually 8mm. I found some 6mm that I’d previously used in cordellettes. Scary, and having seen it again it’s really quite jarring to consider rapping on it. I tied up both and “rapped” each as a single. I was able to control the 8 fine with an atc style device but the 6mm was very difficult, and immediately apparent to me how ANYONE would get into trouble using this.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
10-Sep-2020
12:50:47 PM
On 30-Aug-2020 davedave wrote;
> Both group leaders agreed to use a Elderid 6mm (specialist) rap line (as single strand 6mm) for this purpose.

>The climbing team decided to split the rappel down the mainland side into two pitches (reasons unknown). One or more climbers descended the line uneventfully, but a following (inexperienced) climber on the club team (apparently using a megajul; configuration tube/brake assist unknown) lost control during their descent. Despite a firemans belay the climbers fall was slowed but not completely arrested. The climber suffered a burn/abrasion injury to their hand.

Re the Edelrid 6 mm used as single strand for abseiling...
The Edelrid website has an associated downloadable pdf for usage of this specialist rope.
It is quite clear in the pictographs of that file that the rope is meant to be used double, or if mixed with a larger diameter rope to either abseil on both together or block off the thin 6 mm strand and abseil the thicker diameter strand, and even then, with caution and due attention to rigging correctly in both cases!

Re using a megajule abseil device with it as a doubled strand abseil; it clearly indicates that two karabiners are meant to be used in conjunction with the megajule to provide manageable friction.


ODH’s treatise should be compulsory reading for all members of the club involved...
patto
11-Sep-2020
4:05:24 PM
On 10-Sep-2020 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>
>ODH’s treatise should be compulsory reading for all members of the club
>involved...

Surely a well informed and well written formal incident report is far better than the rantings of an ill informed guy on the internet.

Like I've said I agree with many of the issues raised. But going on long winded rants over factors that are already known and raised as issues is not productive. Personally I do want to see more accident reports posted and discussed, and we can do without the old man yelling at a cloud.

E. Wells
11-Sep-2020
5:12:04 PM
On 11-Sep-2020 patto wrote:
>On 10-Sep-2020 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>>ODH’s treatise should be compulsory reading for all members of the club
>>involved...
>
>Surely a well informed and well written formal incident report is far
>better than the rantings of an ill informed guy on the internet.
>
>Like I've said I agree with many of the issues raised. But going on long
>winded rants over factors that are already known and raised as issues is
>not productive. Personally I do want to see more accident reports posted
>and discussed, and we can do without the old man yelling at a cloud.

I for one read odh's communication keenly. To say the audience is a cloud is confusing.
capt_planit
13-Sep-2020
8:15:13 AM
ODH's analysis seems pretty good and well measured. Your name calling "ill informed" indeed! Seems petty and not relevant. Simey and Wendy should chime in.
One Day Hero
13-Sep-2020
4:18:45 PM
On 11-Sep-2020 patto wrote:
>Personally I do want to see more accident reports posted
>and discussed.

And that's what we're doing. You just don't like the direction which the discussion is taking.

I get what you're aiming for, Patto. You think that if every incident is written up, there will be a database of information which can be utilized by all the rational and competent climbers whose only handicap is a lack of knowledge.

I don't see it like that because I'm a people person. The problem isn't lack of information, it's just that some people are clusterfuched perma-bumblies who were born useless and will die useless in horrible avoidable accidents because softies like you don't have the heart to tell them climbing isn't for fuching everyone!

Miguel75
13-Sep-2020
7:18:49 PM
On 13-Sep-2020 One Day Hero wrote:

...SNIP...
>
>I don't see it like that because I'm a people person. The problem isn't
>lack of information, it's just that some people are clusterfuched perma-bumblies
>who were born useless and will die useless in horrible avoidable accidents
>because softies like you don't have the heart to tell them climbing isn't
>for fuching everyone!

Haha, Unfortunately your comment doesn’t just apply to climbing. Some people are perma-bumblies in regards to life... It’s amazing the level of stupidity we’ve (society) attained thanks to the negation of natural selection due to legislation and safety features
dalai
13-Sep-2020
8:23:57 PM
You are a lot of things ODH, but with your bedside manner the one thing you aren't is a people person!

gordoste
14-Sep-2020
8:05:55 AM
On 13-Sep-2020 dalai wrote:
>You are a lot of things ODH, but with your bedside manner the one thing
>you aren't is a people person!

LMAO

 Page 2 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 38
There are 38 messages in this topic.

 

Home | Guide | Gallery | Tech Tips | Articles | Reviews | Dictionary | Forum | Links | About | Search
Chockstone Photography | Landscape Photography Australia | Australian Landscape Photography | Landscape Photos Australia

Please read the full disclaimer before using any information contained on these pages.



Australian Panoramic | Australian Coast | Australian Mountains | Australian Countryside | Australian Waterfalls | Australian Lakes | Australian Cities | Australian Macro | Australian Wildlife
Landscape Photo | Landscape Photography | Landscape Photography Australia | Fine Art Photography | Wilderness Photography | Nature Photo | Australian Landscape Photo | Stock Photography Australia | Landscape Photos | Panoramic Photos | Panoramic Photography Australia | Australian Landscape Photography | High Country Mountain Huts | Mothers Day Gifts | Gifts for Mothers Day | Mothers Day Gift Ideas | Ideas for Mothers Day | Wedding Gift Ideas | Christmas Gift Ideas | Fathers Day Gifts | Gifts for Fathers Day | Fathers Day Gift Ideas | Ideas for Fathers Day | Landscape Prints | Landscape Poster | Limited Edition Prints | Panoramic Photo | Buy Posters | Poster Prints