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Chockstone Forum - Accidents & Injuries

Report Accidents and Injuries

 Page 3 of 7. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 127
Author
QUT and affiliates sued for $8m Kangaroo Point

Goshen
23-May-2017
9:40:08 AM
On 22/05/2017 ajfclark wrote:
>I don't understand why you need to tell your belayer you're attached to
>the anchor. In hard, safe, whatever is just telling your belayer to stop
>paying attention. I clip in, call for slack, retread, call take. No need
>for anything else, is there?

Exactly, this is what most of us do.


Look, there's an easy solution...

As a belayer, when confronted with an obvious error in communication when the climber reaches the anchors (and perhaps, you can see what's going on), just pay out a truckload of slack, maybe even tie them off, then go about your business of making a ham and pickle sandwhich, racking gear or whatever. So if they screw up the 2nd part (slumping onto the rope without even an 'on you' ....they were going to rap, weren't they?), at least they'll take a ride they're not going to forget in a hurry.





IdratherbeclimbingM9
24-May-2017
2:45:31 PM
>'the end of pitch conversation'

Hmm.
At the risk of being contentious I think it may go hand in hand with dumbing down climbs by overbolting them!

Trad climbing, particularly multi-pitch, is where the 'safe' = 'take me off belay' terminology comes from. It facilitates efficiency in that setting because both leader and belayer/now-seconder can get on with doing the tasks required.

Pitches used to be more than half rope-length so lowering off was not an issue to be considered other than self-rescue if the leader/seconder had a mishap.

The climbing game has/is changing and the associated lexicon is being misconstrued along the way!

For single pitch trad of more than half rope-length abseiling back down was often normal and people developed habitual self checking routines to minimise complacency stuff ups...

I can see where rightarmbad is coming from and I shudder somewhat if ODH blindly trusts not being toasted if he has sidelined self checking procedures along the way; although it may not be a particular problem if he's mostly monogamous with climbing partners which often develops great rapport & efficiency, unlike a club scene where partners are changing all the time.

Heaven help us if the modern generation develop a new lexicon for their current style of climbing, ... and then take up multipitch trad!

PS Without checking, I'm pretty sure that the leader/belayer conversation thing has come up on Chockstone before.
AndreasAachen
24-May-2017
2:59:25 PM
On 18/05/2017 tnd wrote:
>A word on this from my many years' experience on the Sydney Rockclimbing
>Club committee, in the period after we ceased being able to obtain third
>party liability insurance, and so stopped running climbing trips for a
>while.
>
>When the law in NSW subsequently changed to make accidents due to "obviously
>dangerous activities" very difficult to blame on anyone else, we were lucky
>enough to get (pro-bono) legal advice on a process by which we could resume
>club-organised group climbing.


As the previously leader of the Deakin Climbing Club, I can tell you that after this accident (in combination with a smaller one which apperntly occured in one of the VIC climbing clubs later on), we were basically forced to close down the club. Due to these accidents the insurance companies 'reviewed' the the climbing club and the requirements to run a trip became completely unreasonable....

IdratherbeclimbingM9
24-May-2017
8:52:03 PM
On 24/05/2017 AndreasAachen wrote:
>>(snip) Due to these accidents the insurance companies
>'reviewed' the the climbing club and the requirements to run a trip became
>completely unreasonable....

Same thing happened to the Border Climbing Club (Albury/Wodonga) at about the same time as public liability insurance premiums were pricing-out/closing down, such dangerous pastime activity clubs as the CWA!!!

For a short while we became affiliated with VCC in order to be covered by their insurance for locally run trips, but the enthusiasm had been well dampened by then amongst those prepared to run those trips in case they were held liable by civil litigious claims.

gordoste
25-May-2017
1:24:39 PM
I was involved with Sydney Uni Rockclimbing & Mountaineering Club (SURMC) around the early '00s when UNSW (I think?) had a disastrous canyoning trip where someone froze to death under a waterfall. We ended up needing to set up a formal qualification system to clearly define what skill level is required for certain roles, and be able to prove that people have been assessed. But it was really just formalising and documenting things we were already doing. Probably a good thing really.

It would be interesting to see what insurance companies would say if you went to them and showed you have these systems in place already. It can't really be much different to aviation or rifle clubs.
One Day Hero
25-May-2017
1:54:53 PM
On 24/05/2017 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>I can see where rightarmbad is coming from and I shudder somewhat if ODH
>blindly trusts not being toasted if he has sidelined self checking procedures
>along the way

M9, I'll try to explain without being too offensive to yourself and the other fossils who have lost touch with where climbing is at :)

If I had to guess, I'd say that roughly 90% of climbing getting done in nsw these days is on single pitch sport routes to loweroffs below the top of the cliff. Perhaps Alex or someone else who hangs in the blueys scene might have a better estimate than that number I pulled our of my arse?

Anyway, point being, the majority of climbing being done up here is just bolt-clipping to a loweroff. The majority of climbers do nothing else, save the one token "multi" or "trad" day per year before they scamper back to the comfort and familiarity of Upper Shipley.

Everyone leads, the top anchors are hanging in space instead of on ledges, plenty of the routes are too steep to clean on rap. Nobody top belays, nobody raps off. Given the way crags are set up, it would be a pain in the arse to do so.

Given that this is the norm up here (and rapidly becoming the norm everywhere), Afj's advice is the least hassle and safest way to do things. Since everyone lowers off, don't say anything at the anchor, just clip in and thread it, then tell your belayer you're "on them", then lower away.

It would make as much sense for a belayer to take someone off at the anchor as it would to randomly take them off mid pitch......and ham and pickle sandwich, etc.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
25-May-2017
3:03:05 PM
Thanks for the enlightenment ODH.
It's been a long time since I climbed in the blueys, and have always regarded climbing anything less than a rope-length as practice for the real thing...
~> Might have to update my 100 ft manilla now too!
;-)

kuu
25-May-2017
3:35:13 PM
On 25/05/2017 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>Thanks for the enlightenment ODH.
>It's been a long time since I climbed in the blueys, and have always regarded
>climbing anything less than a rope-length as practice for the real thing...
>~> Might have to update my 100 ft manilla now too!
>;-)

Wasn't your manilla rope 120ft ?

i.e. three equal length pieces cut from the 60 fathom lengths manufactured back in those days.

🙂
AndreasAachen
25-May-2017
3:36:24 PM
On 25/05/2017 gordoste wrote:
>It would be interesting to see what insurance companies would say if you
>went to them and showed you have these systems in place already. It can't
>really be much different to aviation or rifle clubs.

-Well they asked us to provide a list of all our gear (down to every single nut / biner) and when it has been purchased. -okay can be done
-Then they wanted to know when and where any single piece of gear has been used. -Obviously ridiculous to do with trad gear which is in use for top-rope setup since years
-Next an insurance guy had to come out to inspect all our gear (just the average pencil pusher who has no idea about climbing)
-Overnight trips became a no-go as camping is too dangerous. - Makes araps and gramps trips a bit hard
-Risk assessments had to be made regarding the impact of the environmental noise in the national park on the trip participants
...and so on and so on...As soon as we fulfilled one requirement they came up with something new.

In the end, it looked like they just wanted to bury us underneath bureaucracy to avoid having to deal with us doing any trips....sadly they succeeded...

IdratherbeclimbingM9
25-May-2017
3:47:34 PM
On 25/05/2017 kuu wrote:
>On 25/05/2017 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>>Thanks for the enlightenment ODH.
>>It's been a long time since I climbed in the blueys, and have always
>regarded
>>climbing anything less than a rope-length as practice for the real thing...
>>~> Might have to update my 100 ft manilla now too!
>>;-)
>
>Wasn't your manilla rope 120ft ?
>
>i.e. three equal length pieces cut from the 60 fathom lengths manufactured
>back in those days.
>
>🙂

It was till sadly a feral bilby gnawed on it while I bivied on Tonduron Spire in the Warrumbungles.
Needless to say, I have since stopped donating to the 'save the bilbys' fund...

Part of the 20 ft remainder is quietly rotting away at a belay I set on an obscure multipitch on Lion Island* at Hawkesbury rivermouth... The rest got used as retreat slings on abseil-offs after such shenanigans.

(* Not quite Balls Pyramid, but a suitable poor mans alternative!)
One Day Hero
25-May-2017
3:55:32 PM
On 25/05/2017 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>It's been a long time since I climbed in the blueys, and have always regarded
>climbing anything less than a rope-length as practice for the real thing...

Exactly!

I used to wonder about people who could be happy chasing grades down the single pitch sport road forever. It's pretty obvious that you'll plateau after ten years, then either quit or only 'improve' by throwing unjustifiable time and effort into individual routes. Now I just assume those climbers have some combination of o.c.d. and mild asperger's.

kuu
25-May-2017
4:19:50 PM
On 25/05/2017 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:

>It was till sadly a feral bilby gnawed on it while I bivied on Tonduron
>Spire in the Warrumbungles.
>Needless to say, I have since stopped donating to the 'save the bilbys'
>fund...
>
These days (as then) many people climb in the Warrumbungles at Easter when a lot of bilbys are nowadays chocolate coated. Little fear of rope gnawing now. Maybe you should donate to the Save the Bumblys Fund?
Sandym
25-May-2017
4:38:43 PM
Geez, instead of arguing endlessly about whether Sport Climbing Is Neither, blah, blah, blah, communication issues, blah, blah, blah, lowering versus abseiling, blah, blah, blah, the bigger concern is that these kinds of law suits shut down clubs and climbing areas, which impacts all climbers regardless of whether your day of heaven is clipping ring bolts or sketching up some run-out vegetated piece of nastiness in the back of beyond.

Clubs get young folks, maybe even old folks, who don't know anything about climbing into the sport and that is good for everyone. The more climbing is seen as a legitimate activity by the masses, the more opportunities there will be for climbing.
Pommy
25-May-2017
4:41:45 PM
>have some combination of o.c.d. and mild asperger's.

3300+ Chockstone posts!
One Day Hero
25-May-2017
4:58:21 PM
On 25/05/2017 Pommy wrote:
>3300+ Chockstone posts!

Fair call. Still probably less than the number of shots on your longest project :)
rightarmbad
25-May-2017
10:12:43 PM
Fact is, if everybody checked they were actually being held on tension by the belayer before removing their safety, this shit doesn't happen.
If this is not part of your climbing routine then you are opening yourself up for an unwanted and nasty surprise.
2 seconds to save your life, seems like a no-brainer to me.
dalai
25-May-2017
11:01:46 PM
On 25/05/2017 Sandym wrote:

>Clubs get young folks, maybe even old folks, who don't know anything about
>climbing into the sport and that is good for everyone. The more climbing
>is seen as a legitimate activity by the masses, the more opportunities
>there will be for climbing.

More people climbing = more impact, more crowding and especially then even more regulation!
One Day Hero
26-May-2017
12:00:00 AM
On 25/05/2017 rightarmbad wrote:
>Fact is, if everybody checked they were actually being held on tension
>by the belayer before removing their safety, this shit doesn't happen.
>If this is not part of your climbing routine then you are opening yourself
>up for an unwanted and nasty surprise.
>2 seconds to save your life, seems like a no-brainer to me.

Here we go again. I think everyone should look down when they get to the 3rd bolt, just to check they're still on belay. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

Either we're doing the thing where nobody takes their climber off belay until told to do so by the climber, or it's the fuching wild west and you could be off belay without notice at any time.

Also, why the hell are people rapping off a 20m sport cliff with loweroffs at the top? And do people at K.P. regularly play 'lowering-or-rapping bingo' at night with 2000W, upward facing lights making it impossible to see their belayer?
lukef
26-May-2017
10:18:59 AM
Have been using "secure" instead of "safe" now with my climbing partners, because "safe" often sounds an aweful lot like "take", both things that could be expected to be yelled upon reaching the anchors at the top of a climb, but which have obviously different meanings and implications.

Also Re uni clubs, the club I've been in, before they stopped climbing activities, while there are some bumblies around, there has always been a core group of experienced climbers who have a lot to share. Now I see the primary function of the club as to hang out with and meet like minded people and eventually formulate our own plans outside the club setting after getting to know each other properly. The main trouble is helping new people to the point where they are experienced enough to safely make their own plans and participate on trips with people they meet without depending on others. Commercial guiding and training could well take that place of wholesale training of club members, it's expensive, but then so will the insurace be for clubs to run their own trips.

There will always be a place for one on one mentoring independent of climbing club activities though I think, as it is the most valuable learning tool, but hard to find someone willing to teach/mentor. whenever I meet someone keen, it's a bit of a dilema considering carefully whether the effort of spending entire weekends teaching will be worthwhile, or if they will just quickly move on to the next exciting thing they come across.
Dave_S
26-May-2017
10:32:10 AM
On 26/05/2017 lukef wrote:
>Have been using "secure" instead of "safe" now with my climbing partners,
>because "safe" often sounds an aweful lot like "take", both things that
>could be expected to be yelled upon reaching the anchors at the top of
>a climb, but which have obviously different meanings and implications.

That only helps if you also stop saying "take", or if your belayer absolutely knows that you will never say "safe", and if they think they hear "safe" will assume that they have misheard and instead take in. I'd suggest it is more important that the belayer always asks for confirmation before taking a climber off belay.

E.g.

"I'm safe!"
"Ok, [climber's name], taking you off belay?"
"Yes, [belayer's name], take me off belay."
"Ok!"
*Belayer only now takes the climber off belay*
"Ok, [climber's name], you are off belay!"

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