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Chockstone Forum - Accidents & Injuries

Report Accidents and Injuries

 Page 2 of 7. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 127
Author
QUT and affiliates sued for $8m Kangaroo Point

Duang Daunk
18-May-2017
9:04:44 PM
On 18/05/2017 Flano wrote:
>Ummm...I think he was talking about the other guy.

I'm not with your thinking bro as you are on new page, so please quote what you are referring to.

Flano
18-May-2017
9:51:51 PM
ODH

Like you I'm an extremely passionate climber and like another person in this thread I'm an active leader in a uni outdoor club. In saying this I see this thread as quite relevant and shouldn't be nuked by the MODS. Reading the posted comments has been of great interest to my friend and I as they're coming from people who have no real insight into the uni club community and as such provide us with a greater outlook upon this unfortunate situation.

tnd
19-May-2017
11:32:34 AM
On 18/05/2017 patto wrote:
>(snip) In Australia in particular
>most such waivers aren't worth the paper they are written on.

Not so in NSW.

Not rock climbing, but in a case a few years ago related to another "obviously dangerous" activity, flying light aircraft, a student pilot who was severely injured in a crash near Katoomba, caused by engine-failure, sued his instructor. The case proceeded to court but was judged in favour of the instructor. The gist of the judgement was that the student pilot had been informed of, and accepted, the risks. That was despite the actions of the instructor in the case being somewhat questionable (he had ignored a rough running engine because the symptoms seemed to clear up, and pressed on with the lesson).
One Day Hero
19-May-2017
12:44:15 PM
On 18/05/2017 Flano wrote:
>Reading the posted comments has been of great interest to my friend and
>I as they're coming from people who have no real insight into the uni club
>community and as such provide us with a greater outlook upon this unfortunate
>situation.

I've seen enough of uni climbing clubs to get the general idea.

It's either; a) bumblies (who first put rock shoes on 2 years ago) teaching fresh bumblies how to die, or b) pathetic dudes in their mid 20s to mid 30s lingering around because it's their only avenue to experience a smidgen of power, or get a bit of pussy (or a mix of the two motivations).

Is there anything I missed? Maybe you can tell us why you're involved?

BBSR
19-May-2017
1:23:31 PM
On 18/05/2017 rightarmbad wrote:
>I agree, as a belayer I don't take anybody off belay unless specifically
>asked to and have a second confirmation.
>But there is never a reason for the guy on the wall to fall once he has
>reached the anchors as his actions are the only ones that control his destiny.
>
>I will never take my safety off until I have confirmed verbally that I
>am on belay and feel the rope take my weight.
>If not then I then have the choice to clarify the situation and rectify
>it or simply rap clean myself.
>Doesn't matter what the belayer does once I reach the anchors, my fate
>is in my own hands.
>The only way I can get hurt in that situation is if I fruck up myself
>or my belayer lets go of the rope after starting to lower for some inexplicable
>reason.
>First rule, look after thyself.
>At the anchors I have every tool required to not get hurt.
>
One thing I do is to pull up on the anchor and ask the belayer to take. Then I rest my weight on the rope, before I remove my (now loose) safety from the anchor. If I abseil I do something equivalent.

I must say I never have liked being lowered, as I tend to have a low level of trust. I abseil quite a bit, as that is the way I learned. That said, I think that being lowered is supposed to be safer overall.


Wendy
19-May-2017
2:43:23 PM
On 19/05/2017 One Day Hero wrote:

>I've seen enough of uni climbing clubs to get the general idea.
>
>It's either; a) bumblies (who first put rock shoes on 2 years ago) teaching
>fresh bumblies how to die, or b) pathetic dudes in their mid 20s to mid
>30s lingering around because it's their only avenue to experience a smidgen
>of power, or get a bit of pussy (or a mix of the two motivations).
>
>Is there anything I missed? Maybe you can tell us why you're involved?

I can see at least one thing you've missed. The age range. I've known men into at least their 40s lingering around uni clubs.
>
>

gordoste
19-May-2017
10:29:10 PM
The article here is very interesting

Waiting For Romeo

Particularly pages 9 (starting at "Anchor failure in practice) to 13 (discussing Everest 1996)


Flano
20-May-2017
9:32:47 AM
ODH

I don't think anyone can disagree with your comment a) but it certainly don't canvas the leaders in my club (I can't comment on any other uni adventure clubs though). I was one of those bumblies when I first joined my club and I didn't know my elbow from a climbing shoe.

I've been involved in my club for about 8 years I think??? My involvement over the past four or five years has been working on and for the committee and it's been many years since I last facilitated a trip for bumblies.

The point you made in a) is extremely valid to MartyM's topic but I fail to see how b) contributes to the incident that occurred in QUT.

Goshen
20-May-2017
10:21:50 AM
Can't we just speculate that the climber involved in the original accident simply yelled down "safe" upon reaching the anchors, and the belayer, upon hearing that, took the climber off belay...?

Sure, it's just the same miscommunication from another angle; but it is generally accepted in climbing (I'd say a golden rule, some may disagree) that "Safe" is a term for specifically communicating that you are now ACTUALLY Safe (and responsible for your own safety).

I've heard people say "safe", when they reach the anchors, and the belayer doesn't take them off, because they know they are being lowered... I think this is dangerous for the exact reason of this topic. I'm not saying they 'should' be taken off. I'm saying that using the word "safe" to indicate you are "in-hard" is a no - no.

Safe, O.K, Off Belay*, O.K, Climbing, O.K.
These are the key words that are or should be drilled into any new climbers from day one.

*Some use this instead of "Safe"; but I don't want to get too far off topic.

One Day Hero
20-May-2017
4:17:30 PM
On 20/05/2017 Goshen wrote:
>Can't we just speculate that the climber involved in the original accident
>simply yelled down "safe" upon reaching the anchors, and the belayer, upon
>hearing that, took the climber off belay...?

Well, I imagine this case would hinge on that (if it ever went to court). Speculating on whether or not it happened seems like poor form.

>but it is
>generally accepted in climbing (I'd say a golden rule, some may disagree)
>that "Safe" is a term for specifically communicating that you are now ACTUALLY
>Safe (and responsible for your own safety).

Yeah, couldn't agree more. Whatever people may think about how the language should be used, "safe" is currently used to say "take me off belay". If you don't want to be taken off belay, don't yell "safe". Anyone trying to use the word for different purposes is a dick, and is making things unneccessarily dangerous for everybody down the track.
>
>Using the word "safe" to indicate
>you are "in-hard" is a no - no.

Yep, someone on here (who shall remain nameless) hit the ground from miles up for this exact reason. Top belaying the second all day long, last route of the day they changed to wanting to be lowered, called 'safe' at the anchor, confirmed 'safe', leaned back and went for a ride. 100% the fault of the climber, belayer just did what they were told.
>
>Safe, O.K, Off Belay*, O.K, Climbing, O.K.
>These are the key words that are or should be drilled into any new climbers
>from day one.

Also, "that's me", when your leader is pulling up spare rope while out of sight above you. How the fuch am I supposed to know the rope is tight on you, rather than stuck, if you don't fuching tell me, you inconsiderate knobjockey?
johnpitcairn
21-May-2017
7:52:36 AM
We've been using "on you" to indicate we are ready to be lowered.

Eduardo Slabofvic
21-May-2017
10:26:53 AM
Here's a radical idea you might like to try. Decide what is going to happen once you're at the top in discussion with your belayer before starting to climb
One Day Hero
21-May-2017
11:24:05 PM
On 21/05/2017 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>Here's a radical idea you might like to try. Decide what is going to happen
>once you're at the top in discussion with your belayer before starting
>to climb

Sure, you talked about rapping down, and you can see that your partner is clipped to the anchor, but they haven't said 'safe'.

Do you take them off belay? Because if you do, you're a fuchwit.

Eduardo Slabofvic
22-May-2017
8:42:38 AM
On 21/05/2017 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 21/05/2017 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>>Here's a radical idea you might like to try. Decide what is going to
>happen
>>once you're at the top in discussion with your belayer before starting
>>to climb
>
>Sure, you talked about rapping down, and you can see that your partner
>is clipped to the anchor, but they haven't said 'safe'.
>
>Do you take them off belay? Because if you do, you're a fuchwit.

You wait, obviously, because if you don't, then you're a fuchwit

Lingy
22-May-2017
5:45:31 PM
On 21/05/2017 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>Here's a radical idea you might like to try. Decide what is going to happen
>once you're at the top in discussion with your belayer before starting
>to climb

As the nameless someone ODH was talking about (at least, I think I am), I can say with some confidence that this doesn't cut it. My partner and I clearly discussed what was going to happen immediately beforehand (i.e. lower off so I could give her a top rope belay from the ground and give pointers), yet I still idiotically called out 'safe' when I got to the top and ended up taking the ride.

Incidentally, climbing at Shipley/Porters yesterday I counted three different groups (some of whom clearly had years of experience) using the word 'safe' when they meant 'in hard'. It actually made me feel a bit nauseous. This kind of loosening up of terminology - which I've obviously been guilty of in the past - doesn't seem like much till it's too late.

Eduardo Slabofvic
22-May-2017
6:14:39 PM
On 22/05/2017 Lingy wrote:
>On 21/05/2017 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>>Here's a radical idea you might like to try. Decide what is going to
>happen
>>once you're at the top in discussion with your belayer before starting
>>to climb
>
>As the nameless someone ODH was talking about (at least, I think I am),
>I can say with some confidence that this doesn't cut it.

No, no, no, no, no!

I didn't write, "Remember to breath, as you don't want to asphyxiate. Remember to open your eyes, as you'll be able to see better that way; tie your shoe laces, brush your teeth, wear sun screen and call your mother more often" .... and dozens of other things that are so bleedingly obvious that they shouldn't need to be said.

I also didn't write, "After having discussed this on the ground before climbing there is then no further communication between both parties, ever, ever, again."...... nor did I write ...... "as soon as you see your climbing partner at the anchor, take them off belay as quickly as you can and run away before they have a chance to say anything".

What I did write is "Decide what is going to happen once you're at the top in discussion with your belayer before starting to climb". This is a reasonable thing to do, and will go a long way to reduce miscommunication. This conversation might also extend to the terminology to be used and its meaning.

Lingy
22-May-2017
6:49:39 PM
On 22/05/2017 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:

>No, no, no, no, no!
>
>I didn't write, "Remember to breath, as you don't want to asphyxiate.
> Remember to open your eyes, as you'll be able to see better that way;
>tie your shoe laces, brush your teeth, wear sun screen and call your mother
>more often" .... and dozens of other things that are so bleedingly obvious
>that they shouldn't need to be said.

Do you seriously think that's what I meant? That my comment was solely intended to say that you, Eduardo, in your ~30 words, had delivered unsound climbing advice in failing to tell the 'whole story'?? I'm perfectly aware what you said was intended to apply to the whole climb. No, I was giving a personal - and, quite frankly, embarrassing - example of when this falls apart, and I used your comment as a jumping off point. But I thought that was 'bleeding obvious' - sorry if I 'miscommunicated'.

ajfclark
22-May-2017
8:00:16 PM
I don't understand why you need to tell your belayer you're attached to the anchor. In hard, safe, whatever is just telling your belayer to stop paying attention. I clip in, call for slack, retread, call take. No need for anything else, is there?
One Day Hero
23-May-2017
12:10:31 AM
On 22/05/2017 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>I also didn't write, "After having discussed this on the ground before
>climbing there is then no further communication between both parties, ever,
>ever, again."...... nor did I write ...... "as soon as you see your climbing
>partner at the anchor, take them off belay as quickly as you can and run
>away before they have a chance to say anything".

I think you're splitting hairs, Ed. You more or less told people to take their leader off belay mid-pitch and make themselves a ham and pickle sandwich. Obviously not the exact words, but any reasonable reader would have reached that conclusion.

Because of your ill thought out advice and poor wording, there are now piles of bodies at all the crags. It's starting to smell. You are a bad person.


mikllaw
23-May-2017
6:27:32 AM
On 23/05/2017 One Day Hero wrote:

>Because of your ill thought out advice and poor wording, there are now
>piles of bodies at all the crags. It's starting to smell. You are a bad
>person.

where is the Like button?

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There are 127 messages in this topic.

 

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