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9:58:40 PM |
On 28/05/2017 kieranl wrote: >On 28/05/2017 Duang Daunk wrote: >>On 28/05/2017 Paul wrote: >>>Maybe signs to help people who don't know understand best practice for safe lowering off. >> >>Given the irony of your example, how do you see that working bro? > >After adding more signs telling people to read the signs. Like these ones?   |
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10:18:15 PM |
On 28/05/2017 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote: >On 28/05/2017 One Day Hero wrote: >>>On 28/05/2017 mr curly wrote: >>>And to the point mentioned a few times in this thread that NO-ONE abs >>>off sports routes, and whether you ab or lower is ALWAYS sorted out >before >>>you climb, well, what if it’s not clear from the ground whether there >are >>>shackles on the rings. It’s the done thing to ab off rings without shackles >>>rather than lower to reduce the wear on the rings. And if you don’t >know >>>before you leave the ground what’s up there then you will need to work >>>it out when you get there. > >>You lower off the rings, numbnuts! See, this is the kind of stupid which >>gets people killed. Again, nobody at a sport crag has an atc these days. >>There is no option to rap, you thread and lower and bolt wear be damned. >>Bring shackles next time, you muppet! >> >? >I thought accepted practice in that situation was to clip ones own quickdraws >to the anchor and lower off those, at least until the end of the climbing >session when last down maybe gets lowered off the rings... i think odh said that above. like the sign |
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9:14:21 AM |
Wow, even M9 gets it and I don't know that he's been sport climbing in his life ... Changing words and practices around just makes for more possibility of accidents. That's why I don't use "secure" or "off belay" to say that I am safe. Similarly why I don't say I am safe at an anchor unless I want to be completely taken off belay. Climbing safety is a responsibility of both climber and belayer. It's kind of silly to be arguing about that. As a belayer, I check my climber is tied in and ready, I monitor that they have appropriate gear, rope management and clipping and if I have any doubt about any calls, I stay on belay until clarified. At a sport crag, I expect them to clip and lower. If they say something that suggests otherwise, like "safe" I ask for clarification - a simple are you going to rap or lower - and if they say lowering, I conclude they are one of these misguided people who need some education about calls, keep them on belay and explain the problem when they get down. As a climber, I check that my belayer is on belay and ready, I trust them to remain that way through out the climb and to let me know if they notice a problem such as the rope is caught around a nubbin, i've missed a bolt or backclipped in the midst of putting 5 runners in the space of 1m. When I get to anchors, I clip and lower. As opposed to when I am falling (although you would know by the screams anyway) I give some warning that I am ready to weight the rope such as "Ok, Joe Bloggs, got me?" or "on you". Even if I was to say take, I trust that my belayer would not be stupid enough to think I said safe, because no one should ever say safe at an anchor where lowering is the expected practice! I expect them to ask for clarification and remain on belay whenever there is doubt. I also expect to hear some response such as "ok wendy got you". If I am somewhere where the norm is not clip and lower and I intend to clip and lower, then I will explain that before I leave the ground (ie, lots of the anchors that Damo hates so much at Araps). Ditto if belaying, when this is an option, I ask which they intend to do. Climbing is about mutual responsibility, clear communication and if in doubt, covering all bases with the action least likely to do more that cause tedious rope handling - eg leaving someone on belay and discovering they are hauling up lots of rope, but nevertheless, staying on belay until clarified because they might just be pulling up rope for an anchor or running it out on easy ground. All this is basically irrelevant to the original case. We have no idea what happened. Climbing clubs can be anything from complete beginners to groups of experienced climbers on a trip together. These situations are rather different. If someone has previously demonstrated they are competent to be left to clean a belay and rap, that's the appropriate thing to do in that situation and that was the game plan, likely the error was the climber's fault. If they were not competent to clean and lower and were left to do so, that would be irresponsible on behalf of the more experienced climbers regardless of being in a club or not. If they had a fuchup of communication because of these myriad ideas of what to do at an anchor, we as a community need to encourage standardisation of calls and procedures in the way we have managed to for other calls and procedures, and reinforce that both parties are responsible for ensuring they have played their role in maintaining safety. |
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10:11:56 AM |
Yay, Wendy's here! I was starting to worry that you wouldn't join in. The only thing I want to hear from these Queensland idiots is that it is unacceptable for a belayer to take their climber off without being instructed to do so by the climber. They have steadfastly refused to acknowledge that point. So, Queensland idiots...assuming that the belayer is reasonably experienced, do you agree that it is unacceptable for the belayer to take their climber off belay whilst the climber is on the rock, under any circumstances, unless instructed to do so by the climber? Do you also agree that accepting the responsibility of belaying is the equivalent of accepting the responsibility of driving a car. And further, the abdication of said belaying responsibility (while the climber is off the ground) would be the moral equivalent of shutting your eyes and taking your hands off the wheel while driving 100km/hr with passengers in the vehicle? |
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8:04:28 PM |
Wow, I’ve just been roasted on social media. Fair enough really given my intro. Creativity – full marks. The talking pube bit – love it. Comprehension – still a work in progress. ODH, yes, you are right. What you have described is what should happen except the bit about not rapping off rings without shackles but whatever. Climb, clip, lower. Not exactly sure how you could read into my comments that I was against this, except that I described a few exception scenarios, maybe it’s a matter of comprehension. And, right again, with the view that it is apparent madness that one minute you are trusting the belayer to catch a fall, but the next minute there is no faith at all. Thing is though, you’ve described what should happen, but when there is a change-over involved, it clearly doesn’t always happen given the accidents that have occurred. So why the antagonism with the idea that the climber has a responsibility of making sure things are OK before they get lowered? I just don’t get it. Another clear comprehension failure: where in my post is the implication that I say safe when I get to the anchors on a sports climb? I can’t find it, there is no implication. I never do it – if I’m being lowered. Oh, that’s right, I’m not meant to do that, we all have to do every climb the same. Difference = error. Of all the insults, the one that hurt the most was that I’m a Queenslander. But before I crawl away and fossilise, how did you know I was a dinosaur? |
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9:28:28 PM |
On 29/05/2017 Mr Curly wrote: >Wow, I’ve just been roasted on social media. I hope you don't take it to heart, it's more me than you, tbh >Comprehension – still a work in progress. See, I reckon this bit is more you than me. >Thing is though, you’ve described what should happen, but when there is >a change-over involved, it clearly doesn’t always happen given the accidents >that have occurred. So why the antagonism with the idea that the climber >has a responsibility of making sure things are OK before they get lowered? I don't have any antagonism towards that idea. I have extreme antagonism towards the idea that if the climber has full responsibility for their own safety it must mean that the belayer no longer has any responsibility. This is what RAB is implying, but please feel free to offer a suggestion on how to interpret his posts differently? >Another clear comprehension failure: where in my post is the implication >that I say safe when I get to the anchors on a sports climb? I can’t find >it, there is no implication. I never do it – if I’m being lowered. I don't know where you think I suggested that? If you click 'reply' to the post in question, you can quote the post, and shred it one sentence at a time. >Of all the insults, the one that hurt the most was that I’m a Queenslander. Sorry, you seemed to be on the same wavelength as the xxxx brigade......are you from Tassie by any chance? > But before I crawl away and fossilise, how did you know I was a dinosaur? Complete failure to recognise current climbing culture and practices. I shouldn't have to tell you that routinely clipping in hard before lowering simply isn't a thing anymore. Nothing new has really been invented in the couple of decades I've been in the game, but the 'median climbing style' has shifted dramatically. I don't neccessarily agree with where climbing has gone, nor participate regularly in consumer cragging, but I don't have my head in the sand either. You should really take a trip to the Blue Mountains or Nowra, and just sit and watch for a day. Get back in touch with how things work day to day in modern climbing. |
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11:38:19 PM |
ADH, obviously you left school before the reading comprehension thing was mentioned. I never said anywhere that the belayer should take the climber off belay and if you read my posts you will see that I never do or suggest anybody does. We are talking about an incident that has quite obviously had cleaning the anchors involved and not just being lowered. I have also suggested that even in these situations where a mix up happens that there should still be no way a climber falls to the ground. He has a say in his own fate. You say nobody goes in hard, but then contradict yourself by saying that you go in hard on a single draw to thread the anchors. You go on and on about some mythical calling of safe at the anchors. Was not me who said anything about that, only you smart arrsse argumentative southerners. Now back to the actual incident which we have scant information about. Imagine this. Climber arrives at anchor with the intention of cleaning the route. Other club member comes over and asks senior member belaying if they could come and check their anchor anchor setup before anybody uses it. Senior member asks climber if if he can clean and rap himself so he can go and look after the several other gumbies waiting to climb on an unchecked anchor. Climber replies that yes he is competent to clean and rap and that he has gone in hard and is now safe. Belayer confirms and takes him off belay to proceed with his task. Climber threads anchor and clips back in and forgets that he is now rap cleaning and because he doesn't do the simple thing of checking his belayer has them on a weighted rope before releasing his safety, he falls to the ground. Serious hurt, no income, family doesn't understand climbing and looks to take legal action against anybody they can to ease the financial burden. All because of not making a habit of taking 2 seconds to check the system by weighting the rope with safety attached. |
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8:42:47 AM |
Forgets he is rap cleaning? Had he taken too many drugs or got early onset alzheimers? If he can forget he was rap cleaning, he could also forget he was on lead and not place gear. Forget he was on belay and not hold the rope. The entire set up is different for rap cleaning. He wouldn't have an end of the rope to lean back on to because he would have threaded the rope and thrown the end down, put his belay device on it etc etc. Lean back on the rope before you unclip if you want. It's not really harming anybody. But if you are at the end of a long pitch with rope drag and poor communication, i wouldn't expect the rope would be tight enough to check that without a lot of yelling to take in anyway. Most of the times in climbing you just have to trust your belayer is on the ball. There's always a mutual responsibility. I don't know that the problem is in the the practice of sitting back on the rope without having the safety on. It's a far more universal problem whereby we need to ensure that people are being taught and reinforced safe practices and principles and develop the capacity to assess a situation and make a good judgement of what to do. Poor judgement is the major factor in most climbing accidents and in some ways, insisting that there is only one way to do things inhibits people's development of judging when one thing or another is the best practice. Not that we live in a society that is doing much to encourage people's capacity to think and assess for themselves in the first place. |
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4:23:31 PM |
On 30/05/2017 Wendy wrote: >Forgets he is rap cleaning? Had he taken too many drugs or got early onset >alzheimers? If he can forget he was rap cleaning, he could also forget >he was on lead and not place gear. Forget he was on belay and not hold >the rope. The entire set up is different for rap cleaning. He wouldn't >have an end of the rope to lean back on to because he would have threaded >the rope and thrown the end down, put his belay device on it etc etc. > >Lean back on the rope before you unclip if you want. It's not really harming >anybody. But if you are at the end of a long pitch with rope drag and poor >communication, i wouldn't expect the rope would be tight enough to check >that without a lot of yelling to take in anyway. Most of the times in climbing >you just have to trust your belayer is on the ball. There's always a mutual >responsibility. > >I don't know that the problem is in the the practice of sitting back on >the rope without having the safety on. It's a far more universal problem >whereby we need to ensure that people are being taught and reinforced safe >practices and principles and develop the capacity to assess a situation >and make a good judgement of what to do. Poor judgement is the major factor >in most climbing accidents and in some ways, insisting that there is only >one way to do things inhibits people's development of judging when one >thing or another is the best practice. Not that we live in a society that >is doing much to encourage people's capacity to think and assess for themselves >in the first place. KP is a circus of noise and distractions. Habits can lead you astray. If they were up there and their usual thing is to clean and lower, then they might certainly get distracted by another in the group, chat whilst they work and forget that they had changed their descending strategy. Especially younger flirtatious year olds. I am not proposing any one way of doing things apart from checking the system, just like you do with a Gri Gri, check that it locks up when pulled before climber takes off. How many times have you hear of misthreaded Gri Gris? If it is your habit to check the system during safety critical times, then you have another layer between you and injury. In relation to the criticism of older people hanging around UNI clubs, bloody hell, they are short staffed with eyes, leadership and competency already, you should be encouraging older folk to join in and mentor as much as possible. More experienced eyes may spot trouble brewing before accidents happen. Also suggest and help implement better teaching and testing competency. Just because your head is twisted with sexual predator bias doesn't mean that a 30, 40 or 50 YO wants to get in every 22 YO girls pants. Ever thought that they may enjoy passing on what they know? Or enjoy the company of younger folks when a lot of their peers simply don't do or understand more adventurous activities? And Mr ADHD should encourage safe undertakings with newer climbers, not go around skyting how he throws himself off into his belayer's arms with gay abandone, because, you know, that just how it is done. |
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6:04:51 PM |
On 30/05/2017 rightarmbad wrote: >How many times have you hear of misthreaded Gri Gris? Quite often, and yet I've never heard of good climbers doing it. The people who end up in those accos always seem to be god awful numptys who are going to be dangerous no matter what. Never the less, double checking is probably a good idea. > >If it is your habit to check the system during safety critical times, >then you have another layer between you and injury. Which is fine, but you'll save more people from wheelchairs by emphasising falisafe belayer behavior than trying (in vain) to get all climbers to double check from the anchor. >Ever thought that they may enjoy passing on what they know? Pffffff, hahahaha >Or enjoy the company of younger folks when a lot of their peers simply >don't do or understand more adventurous activities? Oh absolutely, I'm sure most experienced climbers are in the club with altruistic motivations.....that's why so many of the older climbers are women, right? Haha, fuch off! I don't even have a problem with it. Letchy old guys teaching safe climbing while sleazing on the second year chicks is better than young people ending up in wheelchairs. > >And Mr ADHD should encourage safe undertakings with newer climbers, not >go around skyting how he throws himself off into his belayer's arms with >gay abandone, because, you know, that just how it is done. It is exactly 'just how it's done', (derogatory term deleted by Moderator). Open your eyes, it's the global norm. You can't convert the world to your way of doing things, so make sure that the small proportion of climbers who you do get to influence aren't learning incompatible techniques. |
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8:06:23 PM |
>On 30/05/2017 One Day Hero wrote: >On 30/05/2017 rightarmbad wrote: A friendly reminder to settle down a bit fellows. Play the issue and not personal insults to the man (particularly looking at you here ODH*), despite any goading; or I will need to lock the thread as Chockstone is meant to be a family friendly site and I think us Moderators have been pretty tolerant on this thread till now. [* I have deleted a couple of derogatory expletives and inserted "(derogatory term deleted by Moderator)" within a couple of your posts, as I know you would have done so if I asked you too, having been at this point with you in the past.] |
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10:19:20 PM |
On 30/05/2017 Chockstone Moderator wrote: A friendly reminder to settle down a bit fellows. >Play the issue and not personal insults to the man (particularly looking >at you here ODH*), despite any goading; or I will need to lock the thread >as Chockstone is meant to be a family friendly site and I think us Moderators >have been pretty tolerant here till now. Mods you should Nuke this thread. Unfortunately it's been hijacked and is disrespectful to the people affected by a tragic occurrence. Thanks to PThompson, Richard, Andreas, Niall, Flano and others who put in some useful feedback. It's a shame there's an extra 4 pages of rubbish that followed. This is a hugely disappointing diatribe in what could have been a valuable discussion. On 18/05/2017 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote: >ODH wrote: >>Mods should nuke this thread. >Why? >Despite being tragic, and as a result potentially sensitive for those >involved, I'd reckon it is an important topic that would be of great interest >to many of today's climbers in our sadly ever-increasingly litigious society. Me too. Shame it turned to sh#t. >... And on a lighthearted note; I also reckon the topic of more interest >than another repeat of old topics, plus I want to see the outcome of your > >Heh, heh, heh. I disagree. On 18/05/2017 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote: >>QUT and affiliates sued for $8m Kangaroo Point >~> My commiserations for all concerned. I second that comment. I just hope that none of them reads Chockstone. I added this to the accident reports thread because I think it's always valuable to keep record (this happened in 2014), to potentially learn more facts and also because I too belong to a University club and this has major implications for all climbing clubs and institutions. Although not very active, I'm a life member of that club and I drop in now and again to see how things are going. I owe a lot to the club, and to the University in general. Some of the comments made on this forum are beyond juvenile - you should really be ashamed of yourselves. |
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10:49:34 AM |
I dunno - I think it was great discussion, that just went only a bit too far because of people misreading what each other actually said or meant. Of course things went onto various tangents, because of the lack of detail on 'how' this accident happened in the first place, so a bunch of assumptions could be made in different ways, and then each of these evaluated and our climbing biases and insecurities projected out. Many serious accident comes down almost to a combination of many errors (except say, the example of rightarmbad's, above). Climbing has a bunch of checks and balances that avoids accidents very well. A simple miscommunication won't result in an accident unless some other things go wrong. This thread has brought some of these 'checks and balances' out into the open, and hopefully some people can learn from them... And if I hear people saying safe at anchors when they intend to lower, I'll be calling them on it. |
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11:03:48 AM |
I think if anything this thread points out that everyone has a different opinion as to what safe so hard to define what is negligent practice, and there are many version of the right way. | |||||
11:46:23 AM |
On 30/05/2017 Martym wrote: >Mods you should Nuke this thread. As mentioned above, as long as people can be civil it is opening an interesting discussion of procedures / calls used by the climbing community. I as one of the mods will not Nuke this thread. Can't speak for the others though as they may feel differently. |
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12:22:58 PM |
On 31/05/2017 Goshen wrote: >And if I hear people saying safe at anchors when they intend to lower, I'll be calling them on it. I took a bunch of clients out recently who had all met at a Melbourne gym. Early on I noticed them all doing the same thing - Once they reached the anchors of a route they'd say "safe" before lobbing onto the rope. I asked them about it and apparently that is what the staff at the gym were teaching people. I explained the specific meaning of "safe" in an outdoor cont3xt and asked them to go back to the gym and inform the staff that it was incredibly dangerous to teach people to say safe before lowering. |
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6:19:38 PM |
On 30/05/2017 rightarmbad wrote: > >KP is a circus of noise and distractions. >Habits can lead you astray. >If they were up there and their usual thing is to clean and lower, then >they might certainly get distracted by another in the group, chat whilst >they work and forget that they had changed their descending strategy. >Especially younger flirtatious year olds. So maybe there needs to be some teaching of the seriousness of what they are doing and not getting distracted - Chrispy has a long list of stories of experienced climbers failing to finish tieing in and having near misses which can remind all of us that if we are distracted (which we should really try to avoid in the first place) in the midst of doing something, we should recheck before committing to going on. Hell, I recheck stuff all over the place out of an oversized paranoia gland. And if I realise i've been chatting with someone whilst tying their knot or rethreading, I'll apologise for distracting them and ask them if everything is still OK. When I'm clipping bolts and lowering, i don't check if i'm still on belay, because there hasn't been any pause between my climbing and lowering. I just say got me, on you or even god forbid take. If I have been rethreading or otherwise faffing with the anchor, i'll say the same again and expect a verbal response, but I rarely stay clipped in until I have weighted the rope. > >In relation to the criticism of older people hanging around UNI clubs, >bloody hell, they are short staffed with eyes, leadership and competency >already, you should be encouraging older folk to join in and mentor as >much as possible. >More experienced eyes may spot trouble brewing before accidents happen. >Also suggest and help implement better teaching and testing competency. > >Just because your head is twisted with sexual predator bias doesn't mean >that a 30, 40 or 50 YO wants to get in every 22 YO girls pants. >Ever thought that they may enjoy passing on what they know? >Or enjoy the company of younger folks when a lot of their peers simply >don't do or understand more adventurous activities? Probably because I know multiple middle aged men who freely admit to their motivation. To be perfectly honest, I'm not that sold on their instructing skills either. And Andrew's example is just terrifying. Unfortunately, it's not the first time i've heard of this and the message can't be getting through to these gyms if they are still teaching it. I would have thought there were some standards gyms had to comply to??? |
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9:31:08 PM |
On 30/05/2017 Martym wrote: >(snip) it's been hijacked and is disrespectful to the people affected by a tragic occurrence. >(snip) a hugely disappointing diatribe in what could have been a valuable discussion. > ... or it could be viewed as a typical Chockstone thread that isn't dis-similar to a group of climbers having a campfire discussion? >>On 18/05/2017 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote: >>... And on a lighthearted note; I also reckon the topic of more interest than another repeat of old topics, plus I want to see the outcome of your (ODH) >>Heh, heh, heh. >I disagree. > Fair enough, I am happy to concede that not all who attend campfire discussions (sic) are enamored of the content. >>On 18/05/2017 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote: >>>QUT and affiliates sued for $8m Kangaroo Point >> ~> My commiserations for all concerned. >I second that comment. I just hope that none of them reads Chockstone. > Hmm. The incident precipitating this thread is one thing but the climbing community later-view of that event is another. Sure, the internet often polarises viewpoints when they are expressed in hindsight (blind-sight?), but in my opinion a post-debate has as much potential to be healthy as damaging. Re the original incident; if the litigation goes ahead I doubt any of the participants in the process will find the legal system any less adversarial; ... and consequently views expressed on Chockstone may seem lightweight by comparison? >I added this to the accident reports thread because I think it's always valuable to keep record (this happened in 2014), to potentially learn more facts and also because I too belong to a University club and this has major implications for all climbing clubs and institutions. >(snip) Thank you for bringing the incident to our attention. I suspect strongly that despite the age old rivalry of Qld vs Vic (enshrined within Australian climbing folklore), that the makers of your perceived 'juvenile comments' have more in common than difference, particularly in not meaning any ill will towards any involved in the original incident as they too are part of the climbing family and if they hurt then so do we... |
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9:47:52 PM |
On 30/05/2017 rightarmbad wrote: >(snip) >Ever thought that they may enjoy passing on what they know? >Or enjoy the company of younger folks when a lot of their peers simply don't do or understand more adventurous activities? >(snip) and One Day Hero replied: >Pffffff, hahahaha RAB's statement sums up a number of Buffalo Aidfests for mine... ;-) |
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11:39:28 AM |
On 31/05/2017 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote: >RAB's statement sums up a number of Buffalo Aidfests for mine... I don't think you'll ever be accused of having alterior motives, M9. There's zero chance that hoards of attractive young women will show up to an aid climbing weekend. |
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