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Chockstone Photography
Australian Landscape Photography by Michael Boniwell
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Chockstone Forum - Accidents & Injuries

Report Accidents and Injuries

 Page 4 of 7. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 127
Author
QUT and affiliates sued for $8m Kangaroo Point
rightarmbad
26-May-2017
11:41:30 AM
>" Here we go again. I think everyone should look down when they get to the 3rd bolt, just to check they're still on belay. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

>Either we're doing the thing where nobody takes their climber off belay until told to do so by the climber, or it's the fuching wild west and you could be off belay without notice at any time.

>Also, why the hell are people rapping off a 20m sport cliff with loweroffs at the top? And do people at K.P. regularly play 'lowering-or-rapping bingo' at night with 2000W, upward facing lights making it impossible to see their belayer? "

Weighting the rope not only tests that you are on belay but tests your complete system and ensures that you haven't done something silly like not tying back in.

Again, a couple of seconds to save your life, with do downside whatsoever.
Only a fool would criticise this.
patto
26-May-2017
12:21:44 PM
On 26/05/2017 Dave_S wrote:
>"I'm safe!"
>"Ok, [climber's name], taking you off belay?"
>"Yes, [belayer's name], take me off belay."
>"Ok!"
>*Belayer only now takes the climber off belay*
>"Ok, [climber's name], you are off belay!"

Pretty much this..... I always use my partners name and I always confirm any call of safe before taking somebody off belay.

Of course sometimes communication becomes impossible. Best to agree on an approach beforehand and err on the side of caution. Don't go off belay until there is no more rope left if you can't confirm a safe call. As a second you just have to trust that you partner is either belaying or you are simul climbing because he ran out of rope!
One Day Hero
26-May-2017
1:15:37 PM
On 26/05/2017 rightarmbad wrote:
>Weighting the rope not only tests that you are on belay but tests your
>complete system and ensures that you haven't done something silly like
>not tying back in.

Bit of a sneaky bait and switch there, buddy. Of course you should double check that you've threaded and tied back in correctly. That's something which has just been fiddled with.

>Again, a couple of seconds to save your life, with do downside whatsoever.
>Only a fool would criticise this.

You could go on endlessly down that road. Put a prussic on your belayers end as they lower you, protects against either a homicidal belayer or a failed anchor (but not both). Climb everything on double ropes with one belayer on each, etc.

Again, how is being taken off belay at the anchor of a lower-off sport route any different to being taken off belay mid pitch as you're leading? You can't protect yourself against that. Sure, look down and check whenever you like, it doesn't cost anything. What happens when you can't see or hear your belayer?

I haven't carried an atc to a sport crag in 15 years, there is no mechanism to get down other than being lowered.

rodw
26-May-2017
1:33:09 PM
On 26/05/2017 One Day Hero wrote:

>I haven't carried an atc to a sport crag in 15 years, there is no mechanism
>to get down other than being lowered.

Gravity? but perhaps thats too efficient.

Duang Daunk
26-May-2017
2:48:13 PM
On 26/05/2017 rodw wrote:
>On 26/05/2017 One Day Hero wrote:
>
>>I haven't carried an atc to a sport crag in 15 years, there is no mechanism
>>to get down other than being lowered.
>
>Gravity? but perhaps thats too efficient.

Since you've gone over to the dark side bro, you might as well go and sink some more steel so you can downclimb too. Either that or wait five minutes till someone puts up a squeeze line next to your project so you can use their steel then claim on The Crag another tick for a first descent.

Re lights at KP, was the acco after sunset?
kieranl
26-May-2017
3:10:14 PM
On 26/05/2017 rodw wrote:
>On 26/05/2017 One Day Hero wrote:
>
>>I haven't carried an atc to a sport crag in 15 years, there is no mechanism
>>to get down other than being lowered.
>
>Gravity? but perhaps thats too efficient.
Dulfer also has a fix for that.
rightarmbad
26-May-2017
7:10:08 PM
On 26/05/2017 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 26/05/2017 rightarmbad wrote:
>>Weighting the rope not only tests that you are on belay but tests your
>>complete system and ensures that you haven't done something silly like
>>not tying back in.
>
>Bit of a sneaky bait and switch there, buddy. Of course you should double
>check that you've threaded and tied back in correctly. That's something
>which has just been fiddled with.
>
>>Again, a couple of seconds to save your life, with do downside whatsoever.
>>Only a fool would criticise this.
>
>You could go on endlessly down that road. Put a prussic on your belayers
>end as they lower you, protects against either a homicidal belayer or a
>failed anchor (but not both). Climb everything on double ropes with one
>belayer on each, etc.
>
>Again, how is being taken off belay at the anchor of a lower-off sport
>route any different to being taken off belay mid pitch as you're leading?
>You can't protect yourself against that. Sure, look down and check whenever
>you like, it doesn't cost anything. What happens when you can't see or
>hear your belayer?
>
>I haven't carried an atc to a sport crag in 15 years, there is no mechanism
>to get down other than being lowered.

Nothing to do with your endless road.
You check you are on belay as this a very critical time.
Simple as that. Any failure at that point is in your own hands and as you are the only one to make the decision to remove your safety, you are the only one who can hurt you.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
26-May-2017
9:18:15 PM
This one for the ODH 'as listed 90%' out there who may be wondering about descending off multipitch...

Heh, heh, heh.
One Day Hero
26-May-2017
11:05:26 PM
On 26/05/2017 rightarmbad wrote:
>You check you are on belay as this a very critical time.
>Simple as that. Any failure at that point is in your own hands and as
>you are the only one to make the decision to remove your safety, you are
>the only one who can hurt you.

You keep repeating this shit. It's wrong, no one agrees with you.

I think you're either sticking to what you were taught 30 years ago (which is outdated), or pushing an agenda related to the current case. Either way, get your head out of your arse, actually go to a loweroff crag where people know what they're doing (i.e. not in queensland), and watch how things work.

Nobody makes themselves 'safe' at the frigging top anchor anymore. Most of the time you clip and go (because others are leading after you). When it comes time to thread, clip in to a single draw on a single bolt (it's safe because you're on belay), push a loop through, tie a knot and clip to harness, untie original knot, onto belayer and go. At no point is anyone 'safe' at the top anchor. Do you understand that?

This is how shit gets done at sport crags everywhere these days! Everywhere! It's safe as houses as long as no backwater hillbillies think they get a pass for taking their climber off belay in the 45 seconds it requires to thread an anchor.

Fark!
rightarmbad
27-May-2017
8:17:25 PM
No it is not what I was taught, but just the common sense of adding an extra layer of safety into a system with virtually no overhead.
When I see the traffic lights go green I don't assume it is safe either.
I look both ways and then proceed.

Both instances take a mere handful seconds but add enormously to safety in situations that have repeatedly proven to have been 'accident' prone.

I climb with a lot of overseas visitors and sometimes there are climbing practices differences and language barriers so miscommunication can be more prevalent.
If I climbed every week with the same person then maybe I might become complacent like you and expose myself to unnecessary risk.

But it is only seconds, so I doubt it.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
27-May-2017
8:56:27 PM
A bit late, but I reckon QUT wouldn't mind having a Kuringai outcome formalised...
Richard Delaney
27-May-2017
9:09:26 PM
But... that would not apply in this case because of the duty of care owed to the student by the activity leader (which is the same whether paid or volunteer).
One Day Hero
28-May-2017
1:12:31 PM
On 27/05/2017 rightarmbad wrote:
> just the common sense of adding an
>extra layer of safety into a system with virtually no overhead.

Which is fine, you can do whatever you like. I once saw a guy at nowra who put 2 quickdraws on every bolt (to guard against the reasonably common occurrence of unclipping).

Just don't try to normalise taking people off belay at loweroff crags. I'll say it again, the way I do stuff is the global norm, it isn't some weird thing I invented. Why don't you find one actual good active climber to back your idea of going in safe at the top of every sport pitch? Please report back when you find someone who's with you on this.
Paul
28-May-2017
2:20:02 PM
On 28/05/2017 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 27/05/2017 rightarmbad wrote:
>> just the common sense of adding an
>>extra layer of safety into a system with virtually no overhead.
>
>Which is fine, you can do whatever you like. I once saw a guy at nowra
>who put 2 quickdraws on every bolt (to guard against the reasonably common
>occurrence of unclipping).
>
>Just don't try to normalise taking people off belay at loweroff crags.
>I'll say it again, the way I do stuff is the global norm, it isn't some
>weird thing I invented. Why don't you find one actual good active climber
>to back your idea of going in safe at the top of every sport pitch? Please
>report back when you find someone who's with you on this.

We are talking about a cliff where signs had to be put up telling people to belay off their harness and not the fence, and I witnessed a person belaying of a sling attached to the said fence no more than 2 meters from the said sign.

Maybe signs to help people who don't know understand best practice for safe lowering off.

Duang Daunk
28-May-2017
2:29:23 PM
On 28/05/2017 Paul wrote:
>On 28/05/2017 One Day Hero wrote:
>>Just don't try to normalise taking people off belay at loweroff crags.

>We are talking about a cliff where signs had to be put up telling people
>to belay off their harness and not the fence, and I witnessed a person
>belaying of a sling attached to the said fence no more than 2 meters from
>the said sign.
>
>Maybe signs to help people who don't know understand best practice for
>safe lowering off.

Given the irony of your example, how do you see that working bro?
kieranl
28-May-2017
2:59:40 PM
On 28/05/2017 Duang Daunk wrote:
>On 28/05/2017 Paul wrote:
>>On 28/05/2017 One Day Hero wrote:
>>>Just don't try to normalise taking people off belay at loweroff crags.
>
>>We are talking about a cliff where signs had to be put up telling people
>>to belay off their harness and not the fence, and I witnessed a person
>>belaying of a sling attached to the said fence no more than 2 meters
>from
>>the said sign.
>>
>>Maybe signs to help people who don't know understand best practice for
>>safe lowering off.
>
>Given the irony of your example, how do you see that working bro?

After adding more signs telling people to read the signs.
widewetandslippery
28-May-2017
3:20:53 PM
Imagine the money local councils in popular climbing areas could make for violating the sign and not having a chip in you to to prove you passed your test.
mr curly
28-May-2017
6:06:04 PM
I think itís time for a lesson on comprehension, as it seems to be sadly lacking. Most people learn this stuff in 6th class.

Hereís what Right Arm Band said,
If there was a miscommunication it is simply up to the person on the rock to not take himself off safety

And below that,
Once you reach the anchors, there is only one person that can hurt you and that is yourself.

Unless there was a wrongly threaded Gri Gri and the most senior member also let go of the brake rope, the fault lies with th climber.

Let me reword the second bit,
ďIf (PLEASE notice the IF) the belayer does nothing wrong, then any failure is due to the climber.

The first point is essentially saying that if comms are bad, the person at risk of hitting the deck should probably err on the side of caution and remain clipped in until they are certain their belayer has them.

The second point is that, IF the belayer does everything correct, then any problems are due to the climber.

I donít understand how anyone could have any issue with these two simple concepts. And it doesnít matter if they were learnt 30 years ago or yesterday.

And hereís the funny bit, where you both essentially say the same thing. I love watching people have these huge arguments when IF (thereís that word again) they had actually taken the time to understand the point theyíd realise they actually agree.

>But there is never a reason for the guy on the wall to fall once he has
>reached the anchors as his actions are the only ones that control his destiny.

What are you talking about, dude? I regularly get to an anchor, out of sight and talking range of my belayer, thread the thing, then bomb onto the rope. If my belayer takes me off, I'm fuching toast.

IF you donít get it, read my re-worded version (where the IF bit is moved to the front of the sentence rather than the end). If the belayer does their job, and you thread the anchors correctly, no problem. But, if the belayer does their job, and you thread the anchors incorrectly, potentially BIG problems. In these two simple scenarios the difference is the action of the climber Ė and that is RABís point.

And then this bit
If communication is a problem, clean and rap, the belayer plays no part in your own safety.

What he is saying here, and yes, it needs to be pointed out, is basically, if you arenít sure that someone else is in a position to lower you safely, then take care of it yourself so that you are NEVER placed in a situation, due to bad comms, where there is doubt that you are on belay.

Again, how can anyone fault this thinking. This is the essence of a key stream of the climbing ethic Ė you are responsible for your own safety. ALWAYS, from the gear you place, to the climbs you do, to the people you choose to climb with to what you do when comms are bad and you donít know what the other person is doing.

And to the point mentioned a few times in this thread that NO-ONE abs off sports routes, and whether you ab or lower is ALWAYS sorted out before you climb, well, what if itís not clear from the ground whether there are shackles on the rings. Itís the done thing to ab off rings without shackles rather than lower to reduce the wear on the rings. And if you donít know before you leave the ground whatís up there then you will need to work it out when you get there.
One Day Hero
28-May-2017
7:16:45 PM
And now I'm arguing with a talking pube, how did my life come to this?

On 28/05/2017 mr curly wrote:
>Once you reach the anchors, there is only one person that can hurt you
>and that is yourself.

Listen up 'Mr. Curly', this the part I have a massive problem with! Here is a comprehension lesson for you from that sentence.

The implication is that everyone who ever gets to a top anchor makes themselves safe and then checks to see that everything is good to be lowered, or raps or whatever. This does not happen at sport crags, and has not been standard procedure for a very long time now.


>Unless there was a wrongly threaded Gri Gri and the most senior member
>also let go of the brake rope, the fault lies with the climber.

Nope! Cut this shit out. If the belayer walked off without the climber telling them to take them off belay, AND unless the belayer said "off belay" AND unless they received an "ok", then the belayer is a fuchwit.

>The second point is that, IF the belayer does everything correct, then
>any problems are due to the climber.

Absolutely agree with this one. If the belayer stays on belay until told by their climber not to, and doesn't fuch up said belaying, then any problems are due to the climber

>And hereís the funny bit, where you both essentially say the same thing.
> I love watching people have these huge arguments when IF (thereís that
>word again) they had actually taken the time to understand the point theyíd
>realise they actually agree.

Your failure to understand is astounding!

>But, if the
>belayer does their job, and you thread the anchors incorrectly, potentially
>BIG problems. In these two simple scenarios the difference is the action
>of the climber Ė and that is RABís point.

No, RAB's point is that once the climber gets to the anchor it is completely fine for the belayer to wander off for a ham and pickle sandwich, as everything from there on is in the hands of the climber.
>
>And then this bit
>If communication is a problem, clean and rap, the belayer plays no part
>in your own safety.

See, you just repeated it. Nobody in sport climbing is doing this! Being out of sight and hearing range of ones belayer is quite common, everyone just clips the anchor and lowers (trusting that the belayer isn't a queensland fuchwit who has taken them off belay). This happens at sport crags all round the world every day. It is the accepted normal practice!
>
>What he is saying here, and yes, it needs to be pointed out, is basically,
>if you arenít sure that someone else is in a position to lower you safely,
>then take care of it yourself so that you are NEVER placed in a situation,
>due to bad comms, where there is doubt that you are on belay.

And now you've said it again. They are your belayer! How are they not in a position to lower you safely? 30 seconds ago you were leading the route and trusting them to catch you in a fall. How? Why?

>Again, how can anyone fault this thinking. This is the essence of a key
>stream of the climbing ethic Ė you are responsible for your own safety.
> ALWAYS, from the gear you place, to the climbs you do, to the people you
>choose to climb with to what you do when comms are bad and you donít know
>what the other person is doing.

So we all solo now? Fuch!!!!!! If you climb with a rope and a belayer, you are trusting your belayer with your life every time! They are massively responsible for your safety. This is the first thing I was taught in climbing.
>
>And to the point mentioned a few times in this thread that NO-ONE abs
>off sports routes, and whether you ab or lower is ALWAYS sorted out before
>you climb, well, what if itís not clear from the ground whether there are
>shackles on the rings. Itís the done thing to ab off rings without shackles
>rather than lower to reduce the wear on the rings. And if you donít know
>before you leave the ground whatís up there then you will need to work
>it out when you get there.

You lower off the rings, numbnuts! See, this is the kind of stupid which gets people killed. Again, nobody at a sport crag has an atc these days. There is no option to rap, you thread and lower and bolt wear be damned. Bring shackles next time, you (derogatory term deleted by Moderator) muppet!

IdratherbeclimbingM9
28-May-2017
9:09:58 PM
On 28/05/2017 One Day Hero wrote:
>>On 28/05/2017 mr curly wrote:
>>And to the point mentioned a few times in this thread that NO-ONE abs
>>off sports routes, and whether you ab or lower is ALWAYS sorted out before
>>you climb, well, what if itís not clear from the ground whether there are
>>shackles on the rings. Itís the done thing to ab off rings without shackles
>>rather than lower to reduce the wear on the rings. And if you donít know
>>before you leave the ground whatís up there then you will need to work
>>it out when you get there.

>You lower off the rings, numbnuts! See, this is the kind of stupid which
>gets people killed. Again, nobody at a sport crag has an atc these days.
>There is no option to rap, you thread and lower and bolt wear be damned.
>Bring shackles next time, you muppet!
>
?
I thought accepted practice in that situation was to clip ones own quickdraws to the anchor and lower off those, at least until the end of the climbing session when last down maybe gets lowered off the rings...

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