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Chockstone Forum - Accidents & Injuries

Report Accidents and Injuries

 Page 2 of 4. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 64
Author
St Peters Gym accident
OozeDumbHopeless
24-Sep-2016
10:03:08 AM
On 23/09/2016 Garbie wrote:
The staff talk to anyone they see belaying
>badly, and hopefully that has prevented more accidents, but it can't prevent
>them all.

From what I've seen, most staff in gyms are great. Unfortunately at least 50% of people I've seen in gyms belay poorly and staff can't be everywhere.
Happywanderer
24-Sep-2016
11:13:22 AM
We can all learn from accidents..and I think one of the underpinning reasons why 'Accidents & Injuries' exists as a topic in this forum is to offer up a means to assess the causal factors and perhaps implement new strategies to avoid the identified hazards/risks in the future. Aircraft crash investigators comes to mind...pilots and aviation industry can learn from each others mistakes - so things trend toward improvement over the long term.

Some questions I have (which would help promote the aim of improving safety):
1. What diameter rope was used?
2. The stated belay device was 'ATC' - did it have V jamming grooves/cleats? (see link here: http://blackdiamondequipment.com/en/climbing-belay-rappel
3. Was the belay person anchored to the floor or standing free?
4. Weight of climber?
5. Weight of belay person?
6. Was all gear BYO - if no, which items were supplied by the gym?
7. Had the climber and belay person been an existing team - in that...had they climbed together many times previously and developed a strong climbing partnership? Or, were they a relatively new climbing partnership?
8. Did they review and discuss procedures before embarking on the climb at the gym?
9. Was there anything that could have distracted the belay person momentarily? (ignoring normal and routine activities that would have been in progress - eg other climbers going about their activities in a routine way).
10. Did the belay person have any existing injuries or strains or any medical issues? (Note: Difficult to disclose medical issues - which may be personal and private).
Jayford4321
24-Sep-2016
6:23:28 PM
On 24/09/2016 Happywanderer wrote:
>We can all learn from accidents..and I think one of the underpinning reasons
>why 'Accidents & Injuries' exists as a topic in this forum is to offer
>up a means to assess the causal factors and perhaps implement new strategies
>to avoid the identified hazards/risks in the future.
>blah blah

yeh, but this was a gym, an they already have OHnS procedurz 2 deal with it.
all we need is 4 them to cut 2 tha chase an tell it like it woz.
if it was goober patrol carrying on then their infamy is intact, but if it was experienced peeps then i'm interested in Y they dint do betta.
Happywanderer
24-Sep-2016
9:19:19 PM
Quote: [ yeh, but this was a gym, an they already have OHnS procedurz 2 deal with it.] End Quote

And the opposite view might be that in this case - the alleged WHS/OHS procedures clearly didn't function as intended - since the accident did in fact happen.
Note that a gym is in fact a 'workplace' - and so is captured under WHS legislation (OHS...same meaning as WHS).

Mind you - gym staff roaming the floor can't be everywhere and all-seeing...just like teachers roaming the school playgrounds during lunch breaks can't catch everything - this would be an impossible burden.

And speeding cameras don't necessarily stop thse who choose to speed (or run the gauntlet of red light cameras at intersections).

The pragmatist view of life might be that where-ever humans are part of the safety chain - accidents are inevitable. Which might be one of the reasons why 'auto-belays' are increasingly making their appearance (ie remove the human from the equation).

...

My questions remain...and we'll see if answers might be forthcoming in due course.

GlebeChris
24-Sep-2016
10:41:14 PM
Hi all, I will get to write something up but want to work out a few details first... All of which will be easier when I am not confined to lying on my left side in bed 23 hours a day.

I am hopeful to be sitting up out of bed by mid week (it used to be so simple to get out of bed!) and I'll try to write something up. I thought there was a good list of questions someone put down in the forum. If you have any other specific questions then let me know.

Cheers
Chris
patto
25-Sep-2016
2:25:07 AM
Chris you have my deepest sympathies for your health difficulties and I strongly hope you can recover as well as possible.

I think everybody here can understand that your health comes first. While there is no doubt interest in any accident, you should not feel any obligation for prompt replies...


On 24/09/2016 gnaguts wrote:
>all we need is 4 them to cut 2 tha chase an tell it like it woz.
Who is them? We have a traumatic incident here. It shouldn't take much to realise that posting an incident report to chockstone isn't high on the priority list. Chris has been quite forthcoming given the circumstances.
mikllaw
25-Sep-2016
7:36:45 AM
Another slant on the accident is the number of leads.

For instance at Cent Glen, SHipley, and Porters Pass I reckon (wild guess) you might get 100 climbers per week doing an average of 4 climbs each = 400 pitches pw

I think at SICG St Peters there would be 50 leaders per day doing 6 pitches each or 2100 pitches pw.

Happywanderer
25-Sep-2016
12:53:19 PM
Not necessary to know the names of the parties to the accident...and it would not necessarily be appropriate to have the person who fell provide evidence/information either.

Again - I would point out that the fact that there is an 'Accidents & Injuries' section in this Chockstone internet site is self-evident that it is intended as a means to disseminate information and perhaps to learn from that information. Although - there doesn't appear to be a clear cut set of rules to guide posters when they reveal information about accidents. Presumably, this website is intended to be more that just a 'get well soon' paradigm...? I could be entirely wrong here. Maybe it is implied in the title of the forum that it is (ultimately) intended as a means of learning and improving safety in the outdoor rec industry?

In the immediate subject matter of this particular accident - the primary source of information would be the belay person. However, [historically] - there tends to be a reluctance to volunteer information; particularly if that information could be construed as self-incriminating. That is, the belay person might be disinclined to volunteer information, if that information might cast that person in unfavorable circumstances..

A very tricky situation... indeed, almost a 'catch 22' for the belay person.

And witnesses may be unreliable...because they would have been focused on their own climbing activities and not staring at their neighboring climbers in the gym. The first they would have been aware of the incident is when a scream or a shout would have alerted them. At best, witnesses may have caught a fleeting glimpse of a falling person moments before impact.

The same could be said of gym staff - they can't be everywhere - and may also only have observed a split second of a falling person.

Because the accident occurred in NSW - the regulatory body responsible for that jurisdiction is:
SafeWork NSW
Link: http://www.safework.nsw.gov.au/health-and-safety/Report-an-incident-or-injury/notifying-us

If the the accident was deemed to be notifiable, the gym proprietor would have done so in accordance with State legislation. Note that any admission to hospital as an 'in-patient' is deemed notifiable.

If it was 'notifiable' and therefore was reported to SafeWork NSW, an investigation into the matter will occur. In such a case, there is no doubt that the belay person will be interviewed.

Whether the belay person chooses to volunteer information herein on this open public forum is a matter for him to decide.

It is very difficult to foresee any culpability from the owner of the gym (Crestville Holdings Pty Ltd) - because evidence would have to lead to a breech of the NSW WHS Act.
Note that the company name is openly and freely available on the public 'ABN lookup' website.
The Civil Liability Act NSW (2002) presumably would regard climbing as a 'dangerous activity'. Whether the courts agree that the risks are 'obvious' is another matter - that is, that lead climbers accept and acknowledge that falling is an 'obvious risk'.

A recent poster quoted some stats for the number of instances of lead climbing - although it is important to note that they were for 'outdoor' climbing. Presumably, the knowledge and skill of indoor climbers is quite variable (and I might add, unpredictable) - much more so than in comparison to 'outdoor' climbers.

The point here is that the actions of the belay person would most likely be captured under the NSW Civil Liability Act - and may not point to any culpability of Crestville Holdings Pty Ltd merely on account of that persons actions (or inactions). Furthermore, the accident was with (presumably) certified patrons of the gym who had passed the induction/certification program which allowed them to climb at the facility. They weren't trainees undergoing instruction. The gym would have maintained records of their induction/certification as proof.

So the way ought to be clear for the belay person to volunteer information - because it shouldn't expose any parties to legal risk - unless of course the injured party wishes to litigate. Having said that, in Australia, friends (ie mates) rarely sue each other...although it has happened before.
DJ Biggs
25-Sep-2016
1:13:55 PM

Hmm the question that this accident raises for me is how could gyms stress test belay techniques?

(ie check people can catch a fall, even if they are doling out slack)
Happywanderer
25-Sep-2016
1:44:41 PM
An interesting question...

The climbing gym does have an obligation to ensure that patrons of the facility are 'competent'.

NSW WHS legislation does not offer up any info on how to actually train and assess (or just 'assess').

One could look to the 'Adventure Activity standards' for NSW - but it is very loosely written with little substance and no teeth. Here is an example (from VIC) - very similar in all States:
Link: http://outdoorsvictoria.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/AAS_Edition2_Artificial_Climbing_Structures.pdf
//////////////////// Refer clause 3.2 ////////////////////

You will note the very loose wording...the only partial substance is that it states that:
"Participants acting as non-anchored belayers must undertake additional assessment and consideration must be given to relative weights (belayer, climber and equipment) "

In other words, it is left to the gym proprietor to devise their own in-house training and assessment system.

Therefore, the quality (and thoroughness) of the training and assessment scheme is entirely dependent upon how well it is written and how well it is actually implemented and then enforced.

One must also consider that gym staff cant possibly be everywhere at all times - this would be an impossible burden.

As I stated previously, whenever humans are part of the safety chain - it is inevitable that incidents will occur. Try as we might to root out all possible causes and find all possible cures - accidents still happen.

Some take the view that the only real solution is to remove humans from the equation.

The problem with that solution is that it contradicts the very essence of human adventure and risk-taking. By definition, lead climbing is a multi-person experience - it requires (at the least) a lead climber and a belay person. Absolute trust and confidence is held with the appointed belay person.

For the proprietor of a gym, it is technically difficult to design an assessment system that is 100% foolproof. However, that should not stop the said proprietor from trying to make it as foolproof as possible.

My personal view is that the assessment system must include deliberate 'staged' events that are designed to test the belay persons response under real-time circumstances. Of course, this requires the lead climber to be backed-up by a separate top-rope (just in case things go south). It requires the lead climber to be well trained - and well rehearsed in staging a set of circumstances to try to deliberately 'catch the belay person asleep at the wheel'. There must be multiple attempts to test the belay persons competence - one attempt is insufficient. Obviously, for this to be a successful assessment - it requires highly trained assessors.

In truth, few climbing gyms operate to this high standard in their assessment process. Note that this is NOT a specific criticism of Sydney Indoor Climbing Gym assessment methods. It is simply a general observation of the entire artificial climbing surfaces industry in Australia.

ajfclark
25-Sep-2016
1:55:51 PM
> Some take the view that the only real solution is to remove humans from the equation.

And then human designed the devices that are used instead of belayers... and they can have problems too which might lead to accidents.
Happywanderer
25-Sep-2016
4:43:02 PM
Although possibly straying off-topic, this appears to be a 'balanced' view of the auto-belay industry (and manufacturers):
Link: http://www.athleticbusiness.com/fitness-training/massive-product-recall-rocks-auto-belay-industry.html
The True Blue auto-belay is interesting because it harnesses magnetic force - and hence is not solely dependent on wearing parts. The 'Red Point' device (MSA) was not engineered to rely on magnetic force.

As stated, auto-belays may conflict with what attracts some people to climbing - that is, risk taking is an integral reason why they choose to climb. Risk taking in this instance does not mean 'recklessness'... it is carefully considered and there is a degree of preparedness. For example, if climbing to the summit of K2 was 100% risk-free, it would not be such a prized goal. For some, risk = reward.
Of course, a ceiling mounted auto-belay unit is not suited for lead climbing applications.

This presents problems for proprietors of indoor climbing gyms - who must comply with WHS legislation (because it is a 'workplace'). There is no such thing as a 100% risk free workplace. Although, the view of legislators is that workplaces should be injury free. Being risk free and injury free are two different matters.

As stated, lead climbers are totally dependent on their belay person for ultimate safety. Sort of like passengers in an aircraft are totally at the mercy of the pilot. The difference being - if a pilot screws up - he/she goes down with the aircraft. If a belay person screws up, usually only the lead climber goes down - leaving the belay person to ponder the consequences.
patto
25-Sep-2016
5:02:20 PM
On 25/09/2016 Happywanderer wrote:
>Not necessary to know the names of the parties to the accident...and it
>would not necessarily be appropriate to have the person who fell provide
>evidence/information either.
>
>Again - I would point out that the fact that there is an 'Accidents &
>Injuries' section in this Chockstone internet site is self-evident that
>it is intended as a means to disseminate information and perhaps to learn
>from that information. Although - there doesn't appear to be a clear cut
>set of rules to guide posters when they reveal information about accidents.
>Presumably, this website is intended to be more that just a 'get well soon'
>paradigm...? I could be entirely wrong here. Maybe it is implied in the
>title of the forum that it is (ultimately) intended as a means of learning
>and improving safety in the outdoor rec industry?
>

It is absolutely correct that discussion of accidents and injuries and an important learning resource. And I concur with the rest of your posts and your assessment of the implications of such accidents. Not to mention your recognition that those with the most knowledge in such incidents are often reluctant to come forward to a public forum.

I've tried to throw a little bit of cold water on the peanut gallery speculation and discussion simply because the injuries sound significant and sometimes pushing expedient discussion is insensitive. Furthermore the mechanisms for a lead belay failure are largely well known so I doubt this incident is significantly different from hundreds of others that have occured here and overseas.

Make no mistake though. I've often been in the "peanut gallery" on many incident discussions. I've learnt so much about safe climbing, canyoning and other sports from extensive reading of accident reports.
technogeekery
26-Sep-2016
12:23:48 PM
On 23/09/2016 Garbie wrote:
>An accident as serious as this has only happened a handful of times in the 23 years we've been in business (not "every few months" as the post above claims)

Hi Mike - I didn't make that claim at all (that incidents as serious as this one happen every few months) - it was really my rather loosely worded view that there have been ground falls every few months. In the last year I've personally seen two (one walked away, one was stretchered out) and heard of this incident - I'm sure there were more, but obviously and thankfully not as severe as this one. I wasn't bringing this up to have a go at you guys - I think you do a very good job of striking a balance between over-regulation and ensuring safety as best you can. I do see your team walking around, keeping an eye on things, offering advice, and they are very quick to respond to incidents. My comments was much more a reflection on the fact that lead climbing even in the gym carries risks, and even experienced people can stuff up. I think we are all interested in the facts / various perceptions of what went wrong here for similar reasons - its good to be reminded and think through what can go wrong regularly.
technogeekery
31-Jan-2017
3:07:51 PM
On 20/09/2016 glebechris wrote:
>I was climbing with my friend Patrick belaying me. I will post some thoughts later on the cause of the accident and consideration of techniques we should teach and reinforce.

Chris - hope you are well recovered and back climbing again. Would be very interested to hear your account of the accident, its causes, and your thoughts on prevention, if you are ready to share.

Just as an aside, in recent months, I've -

- seen one climber hit the deck. He fell clipping 2nd clip, it was clear he was likely to fall, belayer did a good job to pull in enough slack to partially break his fall. No injury.
- have intervened to put someone on belay when his partner was lowering him from 12m hand over hand on the running side of the rope. It was TR - and the friction around the top anchor was luckily very high. Neither the belayer nor the climber could speak English, and did not know what they were doing wrong.
- stopped a lead climber from starting up a climb with the lead rope tied only into the leg loop tie-in, which I think might have got exciting at lower-off time.

None of this is specific to St Peters. Its good to keep in mind that the gym is not a risk-free zone, and keep an eye out for others as well as yourself & your partner.
TheBelayer
2-Feb-2017
9:49:25 PM
Several years ago at a different gym I was involved in pretty much the same incident.  Ground fall from near the top, I was the belayer and it's something I'm deeply ashamed of.  Fortunately the climber suffered only bruising and was prepared to continue climbing with me.  Something I appreciate as I don't think I could have expected anyone else to trust me at the time.
Like everyone else I like to know the cause of incidents so I can learn and avoid them so here's my side of the story.

At the time I had been climbing for a few years with the same partner who never took lead falls.  I owned a fat 10.2mm rope which we used most of the time and I belayed with a Sticht plate belay device.  The rope was due to be replaced and I intended to get a skinnier rope and thought it made sense to update my belay device and get an ATC which would be safer for a skinny rope.  On the second session with the new ATC we were climbing on my mates 9.7mm dry treated rope.  He was leading, near the top he took a fall, I failed to catch him and he decked out.

I've thought about what happened many times, possibly too many times and here's the long list of causes I came up with and how to avoid the same.

1-First and foremost I was not paying enough attention to belaying.  Looking up to the climber occasionally in between checking out the next climb I intended to do.
Corrective action=Give you climber the majority if not all of your attention.  Watch them most of the time.  Belay glasses can help if a sore neck is an issue.

2-The ATC handles quite differently to the Sticht plate I was used to.  I was caught out with how freely the rope runs through the ATC.  The rope would jerk through the Sticht plate, it would lock off so positively it was nearly like an assisted device.  At the time my hand was loosely enclosed around the brake rope but not actually holding it.  As a result I did not realise the climber was falling until I sore him in my peripheral vision.  By this time he had fallen a long way and picked up a lot of speed.  Holding the brake rope like this was a bad habit I could get away with using the Sticht plate as it would not run free like the ATC does.
Corrective action=Avoid using different belay devices, if you do be especially attentive to how it might behave differently to what you are used to.  Grip the brake rope in your hand, it's not enough to have it resting in your hand.

3-The rope was thinner than we usually used and combined with the dry treatment had less friction through the ATC and required more grip strength to hold.
Corrective action=Be careful when using unfamiliar ropes.  If using a tube check how much friction there is through your device.  For thin ropes consider using an assisted belay device.

4-The amount of drag on each wall can vary.  If the climb/rope passes over a lip or around an arete creating friction there can be little force at the belayers end in a fall.  The climb in question had little drag which affected my ability to hold the brake rope once I gripped the brake rope.
Corrective action=If you are not familiar with the climb assume there will be no friction to assist in braking.

Continued...............
TheBelayer
2-Feb-2017
9:51:31 PM
Continued...........

5-I am a right hander and was holding the brake rope in the weaker left hand.
Corrective action=Always hold the brake rope in your dominate hand.  Even better while not feeding rope out hold the brake rope with both hands.

6-While at the time I was an experienced climber I was a beginner at catching a lead fall.  When you only climb with the same person and that person does not push their limits, frequently taking lead falls, as a belayer you are not getting catching practice.
Corrective action=Do lots of catching.  Set aside a time and safe place to practice if it is not happening as normal part of each climbing session.  Climb with other people as well, its a good way to learn all sorts of new skills.

7-This climber taking a lead fall was very much unexpected and out of character.  It's the belayers responsibility to be ready to catch all the time of course but their only human and humans are not perfect.  If you catch them unprepared it's you that will suffer.
Corrective action=If you are intending to do something unexpected then tell your belayer before hand.  It could be your going to push to failure when you don't usually or keep slack to a minimum where there is a possibility of hitting a ledge or what ever it might be.

8-There is one detail that I'm still not clear on.  At some stage I gripped the brake rope tight, my hand was correctly positioned below the ATC, despite getting rope burn I was not able to arrest the fall.  I didn't get lifted off the ground despite the climber being heavier than me indicating there was not much force on me.  The ATC was in so called high friction mode, through the V and teeth.  Being a new ATC it still had the shiny anodized coating on surfaces where the rope passes, ie the V groove and teeth.  An anodized surface has less friction than an un anodized surface so I always wondered how much this affected my ability to arrest the fall or is it simply unreasonable to expect to stop the rope once it's moving quickly.  I've never seen any tube manufacturer warn about this for a new device.  We did some subjective testing afterwards comparing the friction of the new ATC, an old ATC and even an ATC with no high friction mode feature and the new ATC seemed to have the least amount of friction.
Corrective action=Be extra careful until you wear the anodizing off your new tube or use an assisted braking device.

That's it, needless to say I'm a better more experienced belayer now than I was then. I hope this helps someone avoid the mistakes I made, don't ever take the responsibility of belaying lightly. I'm grateful we are both still enjoying climbing.
patto
3-Feb-2017
12:18:35 AM
Respect for contributing to this thread and your own critique of your incident. We are all human and make mistakes. Many of us never own up to them.....

Plenty of comments could be made but I'll refrain from most:

On 2/02/2017 TheBelayer wrote:
>Grip the brake rope in your hand, it's not enough to have it resting in
>your hand.

This should be belay 101. Your partners life is in your hand. Literally. Sure the other aspects played a part but if the belayer is GRIPPING the rope appropriately then most of those points are moot.


On 2/02/2017 TheBelayer wrote:
>8-There is one detail that I'm still not clear on.  At some stage I gripped
>the brake rope tight, my hand was correctly positioned below the ATC, despite
>getting rope burn I was not able to arrest the fall.  I didn't get lifted
>off the ground despite the climber being heavier than me indicating there
>was not much force on me.

Physics here. Dynamic friction is less than static friction so a tight grip once it is moving is significantly less effective than a tight initial grip on the rope. Rope burn can occur even with a very light force once the rope picks up speed, just basic physics... Once a rope starts moving, stopping it is not at all easy and attempting so can readily lead to significant burns and skin loss.
mikllaw
3-Feb-2017
6:52:50 AM
Possibly this also? I see a lot of people belaying with their device and rope upside down.
If you belay this way:-


If the brake hand is held a bit lower than in this photo, you can have the rope briefly running around the biner and not really touching the belay device. = Super low friction mode.

It will soon flip around as the belay loop has some flexibility, but once a fall has picked up some speed it is very hard to stop.
kieranl
3-Feb-2017
8:49:04 AM
On 2/02/2017 TheBelayer wrote:
>1-First and foremost I was not paying enough attention to belaying.  Looking
>up to the climber occasionally in between checking out the next climb I
>intended to do.
>Corrective action=Give you climber the majority if not all of your attention. 
>Watch them most of the time.  Belay glasses can help if a sore neck is
>an issue.
>

No, you have to watch them all of the time, not just most of the time. Especially important to work on that in a gym environment where there are lots of distractions. If you aren't watching then your first cue that they've fallen will be the rope running through your hands. That's too late.

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