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Rescued in Blue Mtns May 31 2015, the analysis.

rightarmbad

26-Jun-2015
4:28:42 PM

On 26/06/2015 Superstu wrote:
>Is zipping down a line with your hands off the brake and just relying on
>friction from an ATC actually the end of the world? I'd assume that yes
>it would probably hurt at the bottom, and potentially too much heat could
>do bad things to nylon, but are you necessarily going to die horribly at
>the end?
>
>Mikl how do we test?

Try it yourself.
Let go up the top somewhere but not so high up that rope weight stops you, and have a friend stop you short of death at the bottom and see if you think you would have made it or not.
Please film it, with sound.

Watching those parkour dudes, it's pretty obvious that lightweight fit people can come down from some pretty serious heights without damage if they know what they are doing and are in control.
Falling backwards onto rocks may not fit that description though.

kieranl

26-Jun-2015
5:04:54 PM

On 26/06/2015 Superstu wrote:
>Is zipping down a line with your hands off the brake and just relying on
>friction from an ATC actually the end of the world? I'd assume that yes
>it would probably hurt at the bottom, and potentially too much heat could
>do bad things to nylon, but are you necessarily going to die horribly at
>the end?
>
>Mikl how do we test?

Never fear Stu, the testing has been done, sort of.
Pete Livesey (legendary UK climber of late 70s) got knocked out by rockfall while rap-inspecting on some English limestone crag. He woke up at the base of the crag. Caveats - I think he was using a figure-8, being britain the ground was probably soggy moss several metres deep and he wouldn't have had a helmet on (Brits thought they were unsporting back then). Maybe the story was in "Games Climbers Play"

edit : Sounds like the sort of impromptu testing that Mikl would do


deadbudgy

26-Jun-2015
6:08:28 PM

It's not really an example of the dangers of a prusik back up, whether you are for or against for whatever reason. I have never seen anyone recommend rigging an abseil in that fashion. It's a weird combination of two methods. The coment before about numpty is probably not far from the truth. ..


phillipivan

26-Jun-2015
6:10:52 PM

On 26/06/2015 rightarmbad wrote:
>Phillip, I don't as a rule use any backup myself.
>Nor do most of the people I climb with.

Then why advocate it?

And yes, that amount of work, and concomitant rope management would easily add hours to some of the descents I've done.

rightarmbad

26-Jun-2015
8:04:10 PM

Because it is the best way if there actually is a need to have a backup.


pedro.c

26-Jun-2015
9:20:14 PM

That guy falling down the waterfall looks like he accelerated as he let go with his braking hand.

I tried putting a prussic on my leg loop and it felt ridiculous.

I protected my kids with rightarmbad's technique when they were learning to abseil. A firemans belay does the trick these days.

Regarding zipping down the line out of control, one of the complications we experienced was their inability to lift the 50 odd metres of rope up to feed through the ATC on a long rap.

My 9 year old daughter occasional dresses like the man in the photo.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

27-Jun-2015
10:34:12 AM

Not that it has anything to do with topic but it has been fascinating to read the fashion comments on this thread; ... as if climbing-clothing ever made it to cat-walk status!
Just confirms my old fartedness I guess, as I have always put functionality before form, ... as I have noticed many others out on the cliffs do too.


Macciza

27-Jun-2015
11:34:45 AM

On 27/06/2015 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:

>.. as if climbing-clothing ever made it to cat-walk status!

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.518322471648805.1073741832.198809796933409&type=3&pnref=story


IdratherbeclimbingM9

27-Jun-2015
11:49:53 AM

Kailas Trend Show 2015... eh.
Begger me.
At least I have now been schooled on where Ollie goes exhibit shopping.
;-)


pedro.c

27-Jun-2015
8:41:07 PM

That method of lowering someone while they abseil works well, for kids and beginners, if you want to bring them straight back up on top rope. They can come off the abseil rope and are ready to climb.

Dude in the photo looks dressed for canyoning. The duds to protect his wetsuit.

My daughters torn holes in more than a few pairs of tights, sitting on rocks at the crag. The shorts save more holes. "Functionality before form" absolutely ....however exhibit B still has me smiling, too funny.

28-Jun-2015
11:39:30 AM

Shorts over thermal longs comes from NZ alpine climbers in the 1970s and is one of many fashion faux pas that I have been guilty of over the years.

stugang

28-Jun-2015
6:32:09 PM

There has gotta be a clever design solution that can minimise risk of situations like this and other similar c--k ups. And make everybody happy oldies and newbies alike. Prusiks are so 19th century.


Drake

28-Jun-2015
7:26:54 PM

>>>While I am aware of numerous abseiling incidents/accidents where anchors have failed, people have slid off the end of their ropes, or got themselves jammed on abseil ropes, does anyone know of any incidents where the person has lost control of their abseil rope and come to grief?

I assume that some of the deaths from abseliing off the end of the rope could have been prevented with a prusik/autoblock backup. That is, I think that some of these people lost control of their abseil rope when they weren't close to the ends of their rope, got going too fast, slipped off the end, and aren't around to advocate for abseil backups/brakes.

Yes I know that a backup won't stop you abseling off the ends, partially because of the rapid decrease in friction as you approach the rope ends, and yes I know that the best way to avoid abseling off the end is to tie stopper knots (I generally do). However I think using a autoblock brake on an extended device is an easy and quick way to minimize the chance of losing control of an abseil, particularly when it is dark/wet/unknown territory.


phillipivan

28-Jun-2015
7:50:52 PM

On 28/06/2015 Drake wrote:
> However I think using a autoblock brake on an extended device is an easy and quick way to > minimize the chance of losing control of an abseil, particularly when it is dark/wet/unknown > territory

Look it may stop you losing control of the rope, but once the ends of the rope go through the knot, they are going through the device. Whereas if the knot is above the device it *might* still hold you, precariously just beyond the end of the rope.

I have abseiled off the end of a rope once, not because I lost control. An autobloc below my extended device wouldn't have done jack shit. A knot above it may have. Which is still not enough to persuade me to ever put the knot above... Go figure.

kieranl

28-Jun-2015
8:33:03 PM

I quite like this piece by Will Gadd http://willgadd.com/rappelling/

Abseiling is really pretty simple. Make sure your anchor is bombproof, attach yourself properly to the rope, don't go off the end. Use additional safety measures according to circumstances.


Drake

29-Jun-2015
7:34:52 AM

>>> Look it may stop you losing control of the rope, but once the ends of the rope go through the knot, they are going through the device

I agree. But that wasn't the point I was trying to make. I think an autoblock brake could keep you from abseiling off the ends- not because it will catch you at the last moment- but because it may help you keep control and avoid getting close to the rope ends in the first place.


Drake

29-Jun-2015
7:49:20 AM

Here are a few accident reports where climbers lost control of their abseil and came to grief. I think an autoblock brake or equivalent would have been helpful in these cases.

http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13199401500/Rappel-ErrorNo-BackupBelay-Inexperience-Weather-British-Columbia-Park-Range-Watchtower-Peak

http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13199901101/Fall-on-Rappel-British-Columbia-Rocky-Mountains-Mount-Stanley

http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13199601101/Fall-on-RappelNo-Belay-Inexperience-Nova-Scotia-Eagles-Nest

http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13198603802/Fall-on-Rock-Inadequate-Belay-and-Communications-Colorado-Rocky-Mountain-National-Park

kieranl

29-Jun-2015
9:23:35 AM

On 29/06/2015 Drake wrote:
>Here are a few accident reports where climbers lost control of their abseil
>and came to grief. I think an autoblock brake or equivalent would have
>been helpful in these cases.
>
>http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13199401500/Rappel-ErrorNo-BackupBelay-Inexperience-Weather-British-Columbia-Park-Range-Watchtower-Peak
>
>http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13199901101/Fall-on-Rappel-British-Columbia-Rocky-Mountains-Mount-Stanley
>
>http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13199601101/Fall-on-RappelNo-Belay-Inexperience-Nova-Scotia-Eagles-Nest
>
>http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13198603802/Fall-on-Rock-Inadequate-Belay-and-Communications-Colorado-Rocky-Mountain-National-Park

1. First problem was inexperience. Second was that the leader apparently let go of the ropes after the swing to the ledge. An autoblock may well have helped and knots in the rope-ends would have stopped her sliding off the rope-end. All well and good but then she'd have been hanging on the rope, in the rain, tired and unable to help herself while the leader is stranded ropeless at the last anchor. The more experienced person should not have lost contact with the rope.

2. Lost control of rappel on a low-angled slab? They don't need an autoblock they need remedial abseil lessons.

3. Inexperienced climber. A belay would have been more appropriate. If she had been using an autoblock for the first time a belay would still have been appropriate. Gloves wouldn't have hurt ether.

4. The belayer dropped him out of surprise. You're not going to use an autoblock if you want to give your belayers some catching practise. The autoblock is likely to catch you first.

I don't mean to rubbish autoblocks but they're not a cure for all ills. They're a safety tool for experienced people. The known common denominator for at least 3 of the 4 incidents, and arguably of the other, was inexperience. Failure of the more experienced people to allow for this inexperience was the major factor in those incidents.

lightfoot

29-Jun-2015
10:14:37 AM

The' error of youth is to believe that intelligence is a substitute for experience, while the error of age is to believe experience is a substitute for intelligence.'

Lyman Bryson

Seems to me that if you use a technique without understanding how or why to use it then you are a wee bit silly. Autoblocks work great and just like tying into a rope can be done correctly or incorrectly. It doesn't seem a mystery, understand and check your systems before committing to them.

OozeDumbHopeless

29-Jun-2015
10:38:02 AM

Is an auto-lock (such as Mega Jul, Smart, etc) as good/better/worse than an auto-block?

There are 86 messages in this topic.