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Chockstone Photography
Australian Landscape Photography by Michael Boniwell
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Chockstone Forum - Accidents & Injuries

Report Accidents and Injuries

 Page 3 of 5. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 86
Author
Rescued in Blue Mtns May 31 2015, the analysis.
rightarmbad
24-Jun-2015
8:32:43 PM
BSSR, not a top lower, but a rap on one strand and a top belay on the other.
You still have total control of your own rap but with a backup from your mate at the top.
Agree hair can be an issue with extended belay and from experience, so can boobs.


Many people don't consider the tendency to go over backwards with a pack until they experience it.
Tiblocs are light, take up very little space and can be placed on a loaded rope and remove easily once unloaded.
They are my usual get out of trouble device on the back of my harness.

JamesMc
24-Jun-2015
10:37:58 PM
I've not been in the habit of using a prusik when abseiling because it seems to add complexity and I'd rather die suddenly than hang from a rope for days with a flock of crows circling.

But I tried Peteclimbs' suggestion at home and it works just fine. ( Abseil device on lanyard, French prusik below it attached to your harness tie-in loop) You can also use the end of the lanyard to hang your drill from, which is more comfortable than hanging it from your body. I think I'll do this in the future.

Another way I tried was having a conventional prusik attached to both the first and second loops in a daisy chain lanyard and attached to the rope above the abseil device. That way, you can put your foot in the end of the lanyard to get some slack in the rope and you can easily start prusiking up if need be.
simey
25-Jun-2015
1:04:49 AM
My thinking about why a prusik back-up is generally unnecessary for abseiling is because we often don't use any form of back-up whilst belaying (unless you always use a gri-gri or similar), so why the double standard?


dhunchak
25-Jun-2015
7:19:34 AM
I started routinely using an autoblock back up for abseiling after reading a coroners report which found a major contributing factor in the death being the "failure to employ any of a wide variety of abseiling backup systems in common usage" or something similar. I often find it useful to sort out issues on decent (tangled ropes etc) but I seemed to manage all that before so it's obviously not essential. Just thought I'd mention that report because as everyone knows abseiling is dangerous and experienced people f--- it up all the time.

I also thought it would be worth mentioning that I've had prusiks fail on me twice, once due to inappropriate material and once due to mismatched diameters. both times I had a backup in place and so I lived. I second the previous comment that a pruisk abseil system is best thought of as a brake rather than a fail safe backup. If you're not a numpty like me, you probably won't have your knots fail on you though.
OodlesDownHere
25-Jun-2015
7:45:51 AM
Thanks Mikl.
simey
25-Jun-2015
9:50:52 AM
On 25/06/2015 dhunchak wrote:
>I started routinely using an autoblock back up for abseiling after reading
>a coroners report which found a major contributing factor in the death
>being the "failure to employ any of a wide variety of abseiling backup
>systems in common usage" or something similar.

While I am aware of numerous abseiling incidents/accidents where anchors have failed, people have slid off the end of their ropes, or got themselves jammed on abseil ropes, does anyone know of any incidents where the person has lost control of their abseil rope and come to grief?

phillipivan
25-Jun-2015
10:35:41 AM
That guy canyoning in the video, and, well, that's about it.

There are a variety of failure modes that auto blocking knots in either configuration won't protect you from at all, or at best offer a sliver of safety (going off the end of the rope with a knot above the device). Furthermore to the 'auto bloc' is not a back up argument has anyone ever abseiled with a gri-gri (or similar) and a back up for that? I've never heard of it happening. The knots do provide a fairly reliable method to go hands free to attend to other issues like sorting out the next anchor, cleaning gear, untangling ropes, or cowering from falling rock/ice/stubbies/car parts/etc.

I pretty much only use an autoblock when I expect to want to stop for what ever reason part way down. Yes a wrap around the leg also works, but at a certain point becomes kinda annoying.

I extend the belay device off the harness the vast majority of the time though (probably 100% for descents >1 pitch) because I like the ergonomics.
Dave_S
25-Jun-2015
11:59:10 AM
On 25/06/2015 phillipivan wrote:
>has anyone ever abseiled with a gri-gri (or similar) and a back up for that?

I have, once, the first time I ever abseiled with a grigri, just because I carried over the same technique that I would have used with an ATC. It was horrible to control and made the rope twist like crazy.
patto
25-Jun-2015
12:26:45 PM
On 25/06/2015 dhunchak wrote:
>I started routinely using an autoblock back up for abseiling after reading
>a coroners report which found a major contributing factor in the death
>being the "failure to employ any of a wide variety of abseiling backup
>systems in common usage" or something similar.

In my extensive reading of climbing accidents I can't every recall hearing of a death as a result from the lack of a backup. I'm sure it's has occurred but it must be far more rare than the many other common ways people screw up abseiling.

Most commonly abseiling accidents occur from incorrect rigging of the rope or the device or from coming off the end of the rope. Or simply falling off while at the anchors.

Snappy
25-Jun-2015
8:44:05 PM
On 25/06/2015 patto wrote:
>On 25/06/2015 dhunchak wrote:
>>I started routinely using an autoblock back up for abseiling after reading
>>a coroners report which found a major contributing factor in the death
>>being the "failure to employ any of a wide variety of abseiling backup
>>systems in common usage" or something similar.
>
>In my extensive reading of climbing accidents I can't every recall hearing
>of a death as a result from the lack of a backup. I'm sure it's has occurred
>but it must be far more rare than the many other common ways people screw
>up abseiling.
>
>Most commonly abseiling accidents occur from incorrect rigging of the
>rope or the device or from coming off the end of the rope. Or simply falling
>off while at the anchors.

I haven't heard of a death, but there was a case in the Blue Mountains a few years ago where a person abseiled with only 1 strand of the rope through the ATC. If this person had a prusik (assuming it was around both strands) it would have prevented the accident.

Most cases of "single strand only" abseils could probably be prevented with a prusik backup.

In regards to the argument someone had earlier about - we don't back up a belay so why should be back up an abseil - we if anyone can show me a simple and convenient way of backing up a belay, I will! I have never seen any belay backup method that would be practical in a lead belay setup.
One Day Hero
25-Jun-2015
8:51:34 PM
On 24/06/2015 rightarmbad wrote:
>BSSR, not a top lower, but a rap on one strand and a top belay on the other.
>You still have total control of your own rap but with a backup from your
>mate at the top.

I have never seen experienced climbers do this ever! The only time I've seen it is when guiding numptys, which seems sensible. Honestly, who goes out to the crag with their mates and belays each other down the frigging raps?

>so can boobs.

Owww......and also, I am curious about the chicks you climb with.
One Day Hero
25-Jun-2015
8:54:12 PM
On 24/06/2015 Richard Delaney wrote:
>ODH, from a first hand account I'd says he's certainly not.

Yeah, when the non-climbing canyoner scene is giving someone shit about being a shanker, alarm bells start ringing..........cause I kinda consider that whole crowd to be borderline shanky.

>And... he was abseiling in to access a multi-pitch route to climb back
>out.

Well, that's a plus. Does he always wear a paddling helmet climbing?

IdratherbeclimbingM9
25-Jun-2015
9:17:23 PM
On 25/06/2015 simey wrote:
>While I am aware of numerous abseiling incidents/accidents where anchors
>have failed, people have slid off the end of their ropes, or got themselves
>jammed on abseil ropes, does anyone know of any incidents where the person
>has lost control of their abseil rope and come to grief?
>
I did once, back when I was a teenager and abseiling into Punchbowl Cave at Wee Jasper and I was extremely very outrageously unrealistically lucky not to come to grief!
I can't be bothered finding the links at the moment, but have posted about it on Chocky before.
The short version:
Stopped 10 ft down a 110 ft drop to adjust my swami harness. Stuffed up and lost control of the rope and slid at maximum speed down a wet rope to land heavily in a (the only) crumpled-person sized flat spot amongst a jumble of large boulders.
That incident still gives me the heeby jeebies when I think about it...
Did I mention that by rights I should have come to grief on that occasion?


phillipivan
25-Jun-2015
9:21:57 PM
On 25/06/2015 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 24/06/2015 rightarmbad wrote:
>>BSSR, not a top lower, but a rap on one strand and a top belay on the
>other.
>>You still have total control of your own rap but with a backup from your
>>mate at the top.
>
>I have never seen experienced climbers do this ever! The only time I've
>seen it is when guiding numptys, which seems sensible. Honestly, who goes
>out to the crag with their mates and belays each other down the frigging
>raps?

I read that and thought 'dude, have you ever climbed (and rapped) more than three pitches in a day? For Realz...'. Rightarmbad, Im hardly the baddest or boldest climber here, but I can think of several routes I've done where such a procedure would have added at least an hour or two to the descent, minimum, probably more. Which is just going to leave you even more tired, and prone to making mistakes at the back end of a long arse day.
Olbert
25-Jun-2015
9:41:08 PM
I present exhibit A:



Exhibit B:



Your Honour, I rest my case.
timbigot
25-Jun-2015
10:03:53 PM
You must realise that the shorts were only ever meant as a backup

Miguel75
25-Jun-2015
10:17:14 PM
Ollie wins!
rightarmbad
26-Jun-2015
3:49:47 PM
Phillip, I don't as a rule use any backup myself.
Nor do most of the people I climb with.
I do however always have some sort of firemans belay for those less experienced.
Setting up as I have said takes seconds.
Clove a biner into the rope and clip the anchor, you now have isolated the strands. Tie one rope to party to be top belayed, flick a belay device into the system and ready to go.
Takes no longer than somebody setting up a prussic.

If the rap is unknown and possibly dangerous, then by far it is best to go down on one strand, should anything happen, there is a half a rope available to use to fix the situation, and you have a separate belay from above i case of rockfall etc.

Yes ODH, not all climbing chicks are A cups.
rightarmbad
26-Jun-2015
3:54:27 PM
And what the hell is that dude wearing!
If I was rescuing that I would laugh, take a picture and then leave him there.

Superstu
26-Jun-2015
4:08:35 PM
Is zipping down a line with your hands off the brake and just relying on friction from an ATC actually the end of the world? I'd assume that yes it would probably hurt at the bottom, and potentially too much heat could do bad things to nylon, but are you necessarily going to die horribly at the end?

Mikl how do we test?

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There are 86 messages in this topic.

 

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