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Rescued in Blue Mtns May 31 2015, the analysis.


phillipivan

23-Jun-2015
5:42:03 PM

... And panicked over gripping of a knot beneath an extended belay device may release the knot, but will still stop you.

Dave_S

23-Jun-2015
6:24:05 PM

On 23/06/2015 patto wrote:
>
>This guy was using
>a prussik type hitch on his leg loop, and he still fell 20m to the ground.

It actually looks like he had tried to tie an autoblock, but had only attached the carabiner to one end of the autoblock cord. It isn't clear what's happening with the other end of the cord, but it appears to be attached by some other means (girth hitch, maybe?) to a different part of the leg loop. The autoblock also only appears to have two turns around the rappel line.

That said, I agree that attaching a prusik to one's leg loop is not a good idea, even when tied correctly.


Macciza

23-Jun-2015
9:21:21 PM

Why the hell would you even bother with any sort of auto block backup ?
What happened?? You weren't giving me a firemens belay I asked for and so instead I was using that stupid autofock system you insisted would keep me safe, after a all I'm carrying the heavy pack and yeah guess what??

OozeDumbHopeless

23-Jun-2015
9:59:16 PM

On 22/06/2015 mikllaw wrote:
>I carry 2 x 4mm shoelace slings about 100mm loop sized. You can pull rope
>up and tie a legloop to the lower one. Weighs about 30gr. Will fix most
>problems

Sketch please Mikl.

patto

23-Jun-2015
11:26:49 PM

On 23/06/2015 Dave_S wrote:
>It actually looks like he had tried to tie an autoblock, but had only
>attached the carabiner to one end of the autoblock cord. It isn't clear
>what's happening with the other end of the cord

A Klemheist only has one end attached to the carabiner. That is what I use.

On 23/06/2015 Macciza wrote:
>Why the hell would you even bother with any sort of auto block backup ?
>What happened?? You weren't giving me a firemens belay I asked for and
> so instead I was using that stupid autofock system you insisted would
>keep me safe, after a all I'm carrying the heavy pack and yeah guess what??

Fireman's aren't always possible. With an experienced party I would like to be in a situation where those coming after me are not expecting or relying on me to give them one. Communication can also be difficult with long raps next to waterfalls. Removing a prussik while treading water is an extra issue I don't necessarily want to deal with. Carrying a large pack is often a fact of life, both members might have had a large pack.

A bit of this discussion is also occurring on the OzCanyons FB page.
http://www.facebook.com/groups/OzCanyons/


IdratherbeclimbingM9

24-Jun-2015
9:38:45 AM

On 23/06/2015 martym wrote:
>On 22/06/2015 mikllaw wrote:
>>I carry 2 x 4mm shoelace slings about 100mm loop sized. You can pull
>rope
>>up and tie a legloop to the lower one. Weighs about 30gr. Will fix most
>>problems
>If it's just a case of I weighting the rope to remove a jammed prusik,
>couldn't you wrap a t-shirt around the taut rope & brute-force yourself
>up enough to shake the prusik loose?

With that post Chockstone Member martym achieves the 1,000 post milestone!
~> and it is always good to celebrate thingsChocky when we can...
Hip hop hooray, foreezajollygoodposter anallthat!

Dave_S

24-Jun-2015
10:18:50 AM

On 23/06/2015 patto wrote:
>
>A Klemheist only has one end attached to the carabiner. That is what
>I use.

This didn't appear to be a Klemheist though, it appeared to be a variant on a French Prusik where one end was girth hitched to one part of the leg loop, and the other end was clipped via a carabiner to a different part of the leg loop. (And it also had insufficient turns.)

timbigot

24-Jun-2015
10:43:40 AM

http://enormocast.com/137/ Interesting episode from a few years ago @ about 45:35 Duane Raleigh talks about accident prevention and abseil back ups.


ajfclark

24-Jun-2015
10:53:28 AM

On 24/06/2015 Dave_S wrote:
>This didn't appear to be a Klemheist though, it appeared to be a variant on a French Prusik where one end was girth hitched to one part of the leg loop, and the other end was clipped via a carabiner to a different part of the leg loop. (And it also had insufficient turns.)

I've seen this used when making repeated abseils with a leg loop backup. Flick the prusik loop out of the biner, pull leg away from rope, and it's off with no possibility of dropping the loop.


Macciza

24-Jun-2015
10:57:29 AM

Patto I was talking directly to the video example - the guy should have given a firemens belay as it was obvious that the second bloke really was out of his depth and was an accident waiting to happen! If I was with an experienced group I would hope the person before or after me did not feel the need to attach a prusik backup to rap a waterfall like that ...


IdratherbeclimbingM9

24-Jun-2015
11:58:53 AM

A side note observation.

In the Ropelab analysis re clipping off to a harness leg-loop it says;

It should be made very clear that harness manufacturers do not encourage or explicitly permit this technique. However, given that this prusik will only ever have to apply a tension equivalent to that of the brake hand, it would be unlikely that it would ever have to support more than 0.2kN (about 20kg static mass).

... (and lower down within the analysis-discussion of that incident);

If the descent device was not locked off then we have also created the situation where the entire weight is being supported by an unrated leg-loop. This is a situation which would certainly not be condoned by harness manufacturers.

There is a harness that has fully rated leg-loops (Metolius Safe Tech Waldo), and there may be others available too(?), though as stated, the manufacturers don't endorse misuse of their products.

BBSR

24-Jun-2015
2:17:41 PM

While lowering is often an option people should consider, I think in this case it wasn't to the ground, so I'm not sure I'd want someone top lowering me to a belay station half way down a cliff.

I think there is a case for backups, and I certainly think about it (I must say I usually choose not to). If you could get knocked out (loose rock) or crush your hand / arm somehow and lose control, then they might make sense. Similarly if you are abseiling somewhere where you think you might need to come back up ( looking for the next anchor, which you aren't sure is there ). I think you need to consider what makes sense in each case.

One thing I've noticed about the leg loop, below device, not-extended method is that you need to be very careful with lengths. The lengths can look ok when you are standing up, but when you lean back, your leg loops rise up a bit and get closer to the device... which could make it long enough for your device to prevent the auto block catching.

I've tried the extended device method (as per the Petzl suggestion) , and I found it a bit awkward on most belays, especially where the anchor is relatively low down. Not an issue for me, but you need to be careful with getting you hair caught in this method.


ajfclark

24-Jun-2015
2:36:58 PM

> One thing I've noticed about the leg loop, below device, not-extended method is that you need to be very careful with lengths. The lengths can look ok when you are standing up, but when you lean back, your leg loops rise up a bit and get closer to the device... which could make it long enough for your device to prevent the auto block catching.

Also worth keeping in mind that regardless of how short you make a leg prusik, if you invert, it'll hit the device.

Richard Delaney

24-Jun-2015
4:24:51 PM

As for extending the device, it then becomes more likely for hair etc to get sucked into the system. In short, every system has advantages and disadvantages. Know many and be well practiced.

mikllaw

24-Jun-2015
5:14:25 PM

On 23/06/2015 OozeDumbHopeless wrote:
>On 22/06/2015 mikllaw wrote:
>>I carry 2 x 4mm shoelace slings about 100mm loop sized. You can pull
>rope
>>up and tie a legloop to the lower one. Weighs about 30gr. Will fix most
>>problems
>
>Sketch please Mikl.

Top loop has biner, connect to harness
On the bottom Prusik make a clumsy foot loop with a chain of draws or tie the rope below you into the loop.

One Day Hero

24-Jun-2015
5:31:32 PM

I have it on good authority that the dude involved is an A-grade numpty, so that would be my starting point for any discussion of why it happened.

Sounds like a weird situation, but I can't imagine that the fix would be anything other than standard procedure. Lock the rope off, get other prussicks onto the rope, go back up, fix f----up. Also, don't be a useless shanker and don't abseil off things unless you just climbed them or are just about to climb them.

Richard Delaney

24-Jun-2015
6:59:35 PM

ODH, from a first hand account I'd says he's certainly not.
It was a weird situation and he made a mistake in a pretty exposed position.
I convinced him to share the details as I'd never heard of that error before and thought it was worth sharing.
And... he was abseiling in to access a multi-pitch route to climb back out.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

24-Jun-2015
7:44:28 PM

On 24/06/2015 One Day Hero wrote:
>I have it on good authority that the dude involved is an A-grade numpty,
>so that would be my starting point for any discussion of why it happened.
>
>Sounds like a weird situation, but I can't imagine that the fix would
>be anything other than standard procedure. Lock the rope off, get other
>prussicks onto the rope, go back up, fix f----up. Also, don't be a useless
>shanker and don't abseil off things unless you just climbed them or are
>just about to climb them.

I have met and climbed with 'the dude involved' on one occasion, and that is NOT my impression of him at all.
I would have described him from that encounter as cautiously thorough, so I was rather surprised when I found out that he was the 'dude' involved. My next thought was, I'd like to know more about why the situation he found himself in proved to warrant a rescue...


E. Wells

24-Jun-2015
7:58:36 PM

There are plenty of ' super accomplished experienced climbers blah blah' that do all sorts of weird outmoded shiz and get away with it for a super long time. Im thinking belaying straight of waist in particular (which has no relevance to this situation) . Everyone makes mistakes but to not know how to remedy is odd from an experienced person. Thank goodness for mates with ropes and phones.

I was once rescued as a punter trying to solo curtain call alone in sneakers before i could climb and changing my mind. Great learnings here. Btw you can invert on a frenchy on a snappy on your leg loop. I use them alot. Make sure they right length and engage them not just at top but on way down too. If im using it to hang about on add a few leg wraps. Kind of redundant imo due to alpinesmarts ans megajuls but some people dont like to spend money eh.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

24-Jun-2015
8:10:46 PM

On 24/06/2015 E. Wells wrote:
>There are plenty of ' super accomplished experienced climbers blah blah'
>that do all sorts of weird outmoded shiz and get away with it for a super
>long time. Im thinking belaying straight of waist in particular (which
>has no relevance to this situation) .

>I was once rescued as a punter trying to solo curtain call alone in sneakers before i could climb and changing my mind. Great learnings here. Btw you can invert on a frenchy on a snappy on your leg loop. I use them alot. Make sure they right length and engage them not just at top but on way down too. If im using it to hang about on add a few leg wraps. Kind of redundant imo due to alpinesmarts ans megajuls but some people dont like to spend money eh.

Outmoded shiz doesn't mean ineffective.
I have held (and been held on) leader falls using waist belays. They work when done properly.
Having said that, these days I prefer to use a belay device!

Outmoded shiz eh? ~> Good to see you still use...
>a frenchy on a snappy
Heh, heh, heh.

There are 86 messages in this topic.