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Stop saying "SAFE"


shortman

13-Jan-2015
1:18:31 PM

On 13/01/2015 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>Is there somebody else named Simey too?

We agreed to use the word superstar so as to not confuse simey with all the other simey's. Didn't help coz he couldn't hear me, :)

One Day Hero

13-Jan-2015
3:58:37 PM

On 13/01/2015 gnaguts wrote:
>Shortie, I'm still waiting the mikl report, but from what he wrote (below),
>it sounds to me like a gumby mistake.

You already have most of the important details, apart from the spoiler that everybody is more or less unhurt (miraculously!)

What's your definition of experienced? Climber is in that difficult 3rd year phase of being 100% safe, 99% of the time........I was probably at my most dangerous during that period too.

martym

13-Jan-2015
4:41:58 PM

On 13/01/2015 Sabu wrote:
>As per the thread you've linked I wouldn't use 3 whistle blasts for anything
>other than an emergency. If I heard that at the cliff (especially being
>repeated) I'd be very concerned!

Chances are you wouldn't be able to hear it. I've only really needed to use a whistle a handful of times - and it's usually punctuated with a fair bit of shouting to double check. I f---in' hate climbing in hard winds.

Jayford4321

13-Jan-2015
4:45:29 PM

On 13/01/2015 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 13/01/2015 gnaguts wrote:
>>Shortie, I'm still waiting the mikl report, but from what he wrote (below),
>>it sounds to me like a gumby mistake.
>
>You already have most of the important details, apart from the spoiler
>that everybody is more or less unhurt (miraculously!)
>
That's good to know. Seems like everyone else knows the details other than like me who have only read this thread.

>What's your definition of experienced? Climber is in that difficult 3rd
>year phase of being 100% safe, 99% of the time........I was probably at
>my most dangerous during that period too.

Yeh but where does getting dropped by yer belayer due poor communication fit into ya hudt scale?

Experienced? A good point you raise as it could easily be different things to different peeps.
I laughed at the humour when mikl was getting mixed comm signals. I wonder if his experience caused him worry then to pay extra attention or if he was doin that anyway due still freakin bout this acco.
Seems like experience isn't enough and payin attention an being careful (uncommon sense?), should still be the go.
But that still assumes some spurt-smarts gained along the way, which can be hard ta find in gyms, an given the dogs breakfast of opinions already expressed on this thread, is equal hard ta gain on da web, then again the definitive opinion of stugang hasn't yet been given here yet.

One Day Hero

13-Jan-2015
5:20:03 PM

On 13/01/2015 gnaguts wrote:
>Yeh but where does getting dropped by yer belayer due poor communication
>fit into ya hudt scale?

Going by the number accidents which happen this way, confusion regarding ones current state of belayedness is dangerous as fuch.
>
>Seems like experience isn't enough and payin attention an being careful
>(uncommon sense?), should still be the go.

I suspect that a large percentage of the cunning cat-like survival instincts possessed by old fart climbers are impossible to teach, and instead can only be learned properly via a series of sphincter-clenching near misses. Maybe that's a cop out, but most of the climbers I know who are really situation-aware and competent have survived shocking fuch ups which their older self would never have allowed to happen.


shortman

13-Jan-2015
6:34:38 PM

Reckon I've been around long enough to say well said Damo.

Not that I ever get around to climbing anymore....


D.Lodge

14-Jan-2015
1:09:39 PM

I have always made sure that the rope was tight and the belayer had me before unclipping my safety. Get them to take in really tight, sit on the rope, do you fall, no, then unclip and lower away. Feel that they are doing their job before unclipping, simples.


Macciza

14-Jan-2015
3:08:29 PM

Could we please change the title of this thread to something more accurate and appropriate?
Like 'Stop saying safe, if you're not' or 'stop saying safe, if you're going to end up doing something silly', or even better, how about a positive tack like 'Communicate on cliffs to avoid dramas' or 'Belay as if your life depended on it' ....

Seriously there is nothing wrong with saying safe if that's what you consider yourself to be, what the belayer does in response to you saying this is their decision and what happens at resumption of non-safe status is largely your responsibility as the climber....

There are lots of local variants for safety communication in climbing that will also vary over time as well, and they pretty much all work so long as every one is at least in the same chapter if not on the same page, and that both climber and belay are aware and responsible for their actions . . .

I often use Safe as a call simply to tell the belayer that I'm safe and they can relax a little, if I particularly want them to take me off belay then usually I'll ask, other wise I'm not fussed either way apart from the fact that if they take me off that they tell me they are doing/have done so...
I often use In Hard as well to indicate that I'm clipped into something be it the belay or a bit of gear for a mid route rest and they can relax a little. I'll then sometimes use the somewhat British, On You call to tell them that I want them to take me back on belay

I try not to say Take too often when actually climbing, except maybe when working a route in which case it's usually more like Take Us Here if I want to stop somewhere on the route, or also Take In if I am seconding something and the slack is getting in the way of my feet ...

Generally don't need to call for slack with my usual belayers unless I'm out of site of them, and the its often there but consumed by drag somewhere, though I will sometimes call Clipping, particularly if out of sight, to tell them to pay out a bit and watch me ...

If I'm belaying, then often I'll just pay out a whole lot of slack in response to the safe or in hard calls and wait, keeping an appropriate amount of attention to keep them half on belay. If I take them off belay I usually make sure they know that's what I'm doing and that they are off belay, and on their own ...

The main problem here is the wrong diagnosis of the possible cause of the accident, which I am pretty sure is not the fact that the climber said Safe. Without knowing the actual details I can't add much more except that it seems like a definite communication/attention problem, with the belayer taking the climber off belay without confirming it with the climber, and the climber going unsafe without confirmation of being on belay...

Well that's my 2 rps worth..


ChuckNorris

14-Jan-2015
5:22:20 PM

If this all has come about through confusion between the mono syllabic words "safe" and "take" why the fk should we ban safe? " Safe" is perfectly logical and informs the belayer they can stop what they are doing. All "take" does is inform your belayer that they need to do what they are already doing.

I say ..... Stop saying "TAKE"

If you are so shit scared that your belayer is such a dipshit that they are too busy face booking a friend to catch your 30cm LEAD fall. I say get a new belayer. Alternately if you are such a pussy to be scaredy waredy over a slump onto a bolt I suggest screaming at the top of your lungs "I'm a pussy give me a tight rope cos I'm scaredy waredy!!!!!" That way you can confirm what everybody already knows and save them the effort of looking up to see if anything interesting is happening.

timbigot

14-Jan-2015
5:36:11 PM

Or the very British "watch me", as in "i'm pumped and or gripped and am very likely about to fall off and i'm not totally convinced your paying attention".


Macciza

14-Jan-2015
6:23:36 PM

Yeah, I like Watch Me, particularly when I use it when soloing, as it usually leads to a decent conversation with myself . . .

Also, it is important to remember that different people/groups can have seemingly opposite interpretations of th same calls . . .
Mikl seems to interpret In Hard as 'Keep me on belay,expect to lower me soon' where as I don't think it implies any of that really, I mean if I am In Hard that's about the only time you can take me off belay because I am solidly and safely connected to the cliff and no longer being belayed....

Also his interpretation of Off Belay is kinda opposite too, though that may be the American take on it all. Wasn't it Off Belay meant you were safe, and the belayer respond Belay Off, or even OK Off Belay...

If you take anything away fom this whole discussion I reckon it should be that as climber you are primarily responsible for your own safety, with your belayer backing you up and at times second guessing you, or keeping you aware of any issues that might be relevant . . .
Cheers

gfdonc

14-Jan-2015
7:35:55 PM

On 13/01/2015 martym wrote:
>I think the real question is - why are you taking someone off belay if
>you're about to lower them again?

Yep, +1 for all marty's comments. I do use the call "in hard" but only so the belayer knows what's happening, it isn't a call to take anyone off belay.

Simey wrote:
I reckon communicating with tugs on the rope never works. [snip]
>> Disagree on the first point but somewhat agree with your later points. If you're familiar with your climbing partner you can anticipate based on rope movements what is happening BUT it's not 100% reliable.
I advocate: 2 tugs for safe, 3 tugs for on belay. These are repeated twice with a pause in between.
I've also been a big advocate of walkie-talkies but somehow don't seem to carry them so much these days (my climbing partners don't usually see their value; I need to take them multipitching on a windy day sometime to refresh their memory).


Eduardo Slabofvic

14-Jan-2015
8:05:48 PM

On 14/01/2015 gfdonc wrote:
> I do use the call "in hard" but only
>so the belayer knows what's happening, it isn't a call to take anyone off
>belay.
>
>I advocate: 2 tugs for safe, 3 tugs for on belay. These are repeated
>twice with a pause in between.
>

You know, if I were of a smutty disposition, I could read something into this .... but then what ever gfdonk chooses to do with a consenting adult partner is none of my business.


ChuckNorris

14-Jan-2015
9:29:28 PM

On 14/01/2015 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>On 14/01/2015 gfdonc wrote:
>> I do use the call "in hard" but only
>>so the belayer knows what's happening, it isn't a call to take anyone
>off
>>belay.
>>
>>I advocate: 2 tugs for safe, 3 tugs for on belay. These are repeated
>>twice with a pause in between.
>>
>You know, if I were of a smutty disposition, I could read something into
>this .... but then what ever gfdonk chooses to do with a consenting adult
>partner is none of my business.

Well done Eddie that made me laugh. Although it stopped being funny after the bit where you said "you know".


Eduardo Slabofvic

14-Jan-2015
10:10:19 PM

That's O.K. Spewgang.You stopped being funny several years ago, but, you know, I live in hope that you regain your former glory.

Wendy

15-Jan-2015
8:58:31 AM

On 14/01/2015 timbigot wrote:
>Or the very British "watch me", as in "i'm pumped and or gripped and am
>very likely about to fall off and i'm not totally convinced your paying
>attention".

I use "watch me" to mean, I'm looking particularly suave and cool today and I'm about to do some spectacular move you'd hate to miss out on

Watch me is usually a very superfluous term - very rarely have i not already realised that my climber wanted my full attention by the time they get to saying watch me. Except maybe if they are out of sight and want to explain there was something they might hit if I didn't watch them closely, but then again, how much more closely can you belay someone that an already good belay?

I also like the tug on the rope system. I use 4 tugs though to reduce the chance that you might just be pulling up rope in two or three stages (like to the teeth, then to the gear ) and have that misinterpreted. Big solid tugs that stand out.These come with a general understanding of context - 4 tugs for safe will be followed by a pause then taking of rest of the rope in. If the rope keeps moving slowly, something else is happening. 4 tugs for on belay will be followed by continual pulling on the rope. If the rope doesn't move, something else is happening again.

peteclimbs

15-Jan-2015
9:17:30 AM

Re: the tug system

I love it when you're climbing somewhere tall and windy and comms are tricky and your climber gives, say, two tugs to signal that they're safe, so you start taking them off belay. Halfway through the process of removing the rope from belay device they give another couple of big ol' tugs to make sure you got the message. Hopefully you know how to belay on a munter.

Wendy

15-Jan-2015
9:52:40 AM

On 15/01/2015 peteclimbs wrote:
>Re: the tug system
>
>I love it when you're climbing somewhere tall and windy and comms are
>tricky and your climber gives, say, two tugs to signal that they're safe,
>so you start taking them off belay. Halfway through the process of removing
>the rope from belay device they give another couple of big ol' tugs to
>make sure you got the message. Hopefully you know how to belay on a munter.

Climbers pulling the rope in whilst you are taking the rope out of the belay device happens all the time. Is it dangerous? Um, i don't think so. Just annoying. But use more tugs than 2!

Imagine you have a load of rope drag and you hoik up the rope, grab it in your mouth, then reach down to hoik up another. That could seem suspiciously like 2 tugs. And why repeat the tugs to confirm the message? Do it once, give them a moment to take the rope of belay then start taking in. If it feels like they are still on belay, given them another moment to take the rope out. If it still feels like they are on belay, well, they haven't been sure about your message and are being suitably cautious and keeping you on. keep taking the rope in and they will have to deal.

No one is going to die for having to feed rope out through a belay device, it will just be a bit tedious. Put them on belay and give 4 more tugs. Leave enough slack/time for them to take the belay device out, then start taking in. If they haven't managed to get the device out, well, it's not a safety issue to have it on the rope whilst they climb.
General issue is still - thinking about what you are doing and err on the side of caution.


Snacks

15-Jan-2015
10:18:41 AM

On 15/01/2015 Wendy wrote:
>If they haven't managed to
>get the device out, well, it's not a safety issue to have it on the rope
>whilst they climb. General issue is still - thinking about what you are
>doing and err on the side of caution.

Yeah, massive +1 to that.

With a gri-gri it's very convenient... you can then take yourself in hard if you need to or pull out the ascender and aid passed an obstacle with minimal fuss.

gfdonc

15-Jan-2015
10:58:47 AM

You missed an important detail in my description of the tugging. 2 tugs, repeated with a few seconds in-between.
tug, tug .. pause, count to 5, then tug, tug.

Avoids the possibility of the signal being confused by rope drag or desperate clips.

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