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Chockstone Forum - Accidents & Injuries

Report Accidents and Injuries

 Page 4 of 4. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 76
Author
Tito Traversa Killed in a Fall
One Day Hero
20-May-2018
7:24:33 PM
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://amp.abc.net.au/article/9144166&ved=2ahUKEwie-PablZTbAhVPv5QKHZqDA6gQFjAAegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw3Tl2Fhl1VGxVR9ys4roPC7&cf=1

Eight years old seems way too young to be driving at 100kph, but it what would I know? The dead girl's dad reckons it was "one in a million bad luck"........yeah, righto mate, whatever helps you sleep at night.

Duang Daunk
20-May-2018
7:58:52 PM
Side bar in that link reckons -
>Rock climbing
> As a private sport, there's no age limit. But youth sport leagues exist around Australia with children under 10 training in preparation for sport competitions.
> Rock climbing gym operator and enthusiast Scott Braithwaite said children as young as four could climb, but it was always in a very controlled environment.
> "Our sport is very, very safe," he said. "Climbing incidents are very few and far between, particularly in the indoor con-text."

Bro Karl might have something to add given young 11 yo lad on pic of the moment of this site's front page?
Estey
21-May-2018
8:24:53 AM
On 20-May-2018 One Day Hero wrote:
>Meh, you can't have it both ways. I don't know how young is too young to
>be leading, but it comes with certain risks which can't be managed by the
>adult on the ground.

Depends on the child. I suspect there are plenty of 8 year olds leading sport routes. Hopefully it is the child wanting to do it and not a parent pushing them into it. Hopefully the parents have enough judgement to select appropriate routes and the skills and experience to reduce risk to an appropriate level.

Child Development literature is full of papers arguing the importance of letting children take risks. I'm not sure how many parents and teachers actually walk the walk. Children are way more capable and resilient than we give them credit for. There are heaps of examples ... try googling Lennie Gywther or Jessica Watson.

My 6 year old is no where near ready to lead climb. I doubt he will be ready at 8. He definately will not be cleaning an anchor until he is in his teens.

I still feel really sad whenever I hear Tito's name. Tragedy.
Karl Bromelow
21-May-2018
11:19:52 AM
On 20-May-2018 Duang Daunk wrote:


>Bro Karl might have something to add given young 11 yo lad on pic of the
>moment of this site's front page?

Kai has been climbing regularly from the age of 3. His progress has been very traditional if at an earlier age than might have been common in the past. He has been introduced to increasing levels of risk very slowly and from a trad perspective rather than sport. The intention being that he learns "the ropes" in an organic way, absorbing it all as he goes along. He does climb sport routes from time to time and leads to a reasonably high standard on them (not 8b+ yet!!), but the bulk of Kai's climbing is on trad routes, both single and multi pitch. Generally speaking we climb in groups of 3 or 4 with two experienced adults usually present. Unsupervised, Kai can construct solid 3 point anchors on multi pitch routes and make himself safe. He does lead on gear he places himself at levels that he can climb easily and where placements are not awkward. More often he leads on pre placed gear at the moment. On multi pitch routes well within both of our abilities we are happy to climb as a pair, and we have alternated leads. I am very conscious that this process needs to be gradual and comprehensive because of his age, maturity, weight and perception of danger. Fortunately for me Kai is naturally cautious and not at all gung-ho. He is vaguely interested in competitive climbing (being both the current Male Youth D Victorian Boulder and Lead Champion) and climbs regularly with national coaches at Bayside Rock but his heart is really in the mountains and at the crags where he thrives on the adventure. I consider myself very fortunate that he has both the inclination and the aptitude to pursue this wonderful game with me.

Having said all of that. Accidents happen to even the most experienced climbers amongst us. I do not believe any of us are entirely immune to a lapse of judgement or critical distraction. Do I worry about him when we are climbing? To be honest, yes, he and my partner Mandy are the most precious elements of my existence. But the worry is only such that I triple check for him where for myself I might double check, and the depth of that concern is far, far, far outweighed by the countless hours of pure joy that we have experienced together in locations of extreme and rarefied grandeur over the last 8 years plus.

What happened to Tito was obviously tragic beyond most parents imaginations but the judicial conclusion to events is more a quirk of the Italian legal system than some well upheld Universal Principle.

Cheers, Karl
One Day Hero
21-May-2018
3:46:12 PM
On 21-May-2018 Estey wrote:
>Hopefully the parents have enough judgement to select
>appropriate routes and the skills and experience to reduce risk to an appropriate
>level.

What's the appropriate level? What percentage of young climbing kids are you willing to see maimed or killed?......cause that is what risk means.
>
>Child Development literature is full of papers arguing the importance
>of letting children take risks.

I have a feeling they're not talking about proximity flying type risk though. You want kids to be able to step over the line occasionally and not have lifelong injuries as a result. Climbing is a shitty teacher. People tend to go years or decades with zero consequences, then five seconds of inattention leads to a permanent limp.

>I still feel really sad whenever I hear Tito's name. Tragedy.

Well, with more kids getting into climbing, you'll get used to it soon enough.
One Day Hero
21-May-2018
3:57:37 PM
On 21-May-2018 Karl Bromelow wrote:
>Do I worry about him when
>we are climbing? To be honest, yes, he and my partner Mandy are the most
>precious elements of my existence. But the worry is only such that I triple
>check for him where for myself I might double check, and the depth of that
>concern is far, far, far outweighed by the countless hours of pure joy
>that we have experienced together in locations of extreme and rarefied
>grandeur over the last 8 years plus.

That's all fine and dandy, but if the unthinkable were to happen you would have to take full responsibility. It isn't the party above knocking rocks off, it isn't the sandbagging first ascentionist, it isn't the stoned hippie whose glue didn't set. It's the parent who made the informed decision to introduce their child to a dangerous pastime. These are all known risks which are accepted by climbers (along with the fact that a certain percentage of participants will be killed or injured).
Karl Bromelow
21-May-2018
8:47:57 PM
but if the unthinkable were to happen you would
>have to take full responsibility.

And I would, with unfathomable grief. As I would if he had a terminal crash on his snowboard, or if he cycled up the road without me, to hang out with his friend and pulled out in front of a car from behind some obstacle, or.........(the list goes on).

Life is fine and dandy most of the time. Occasionally it screws up big time and lives are wrecked. With all that in mind I still wouldn't change the way we live and I certainly don't ignore the risks and do frequently consider how I would feel if..........What parent doesn't consider these things whenever they let their child out of their sight? The duty of care I feel is immeasurable.

Cheers, Karl
Karl Bromelow
21-May-2018
9:02:31 PM
On 21-May-2018 One Day Hero wrote:


>I have a feeling they're not talking about proximity flying type risk
>though

>Well, with more kids getting into climbing, you'll get used to it soon
>enough.

Wow ODH! You are really surprising me with this. Do you think the kind of climbing that pretty much any pre adolescent child in the known universe is practising falls within anything like the same risk category as proximity wing suit flying? No, of course not, clearly you can't.

And young children have been climbing to higher levels than you or I could dream of for many, many years now. It's not an entirely new phenomenon. Well certainly not where I come from and I'm struggling to think of any other incident comparable with Tito's tragic death.

I'm wondering if you just don't like kids at the crag much. I could understand that.

Cheers. Karl
dalai
Online Now
22-May-2018
7:16:23 AM
On 21-May-2018 Karl Bromelow wrote:

>I'm wondering if you just don't like kids at the crag much. I could understand
>that.

OHD doesn't discriminate; he doesn't like anyone or anything else at his crags! ;-)
Estey
22-May-2018
8:36:50 AM
On 21-May-2018 One Day Hero wrote:

>What's the appropriate level? What percentage of young climbing kids are
>you willing to see maimed or killed?......cause that is what risk means.

Sorry mate I haven't got a quantitative kids climbing risk analysis app so I can't give you an definitive answer on what is appropriate. For me personally I rely on intuition which is hopefully based on experience. Risk is a function of consequence and likelihood. I reckon with good management you can reduce the likelihood of catastrophe enough.

In the case of younger children I'm actually way more worried about them at the crag when they aren't roped up and climbing. Younger children are unpredictable and lack self control. An easy looking gully with death blocks can be quite attractive to them.

As for the percentage of kids maimed or killed ... that is out of my control ... all I can do is hope and pray it doesn't happen.


>I have a feeling they're not talking about proximity flying type risk
>though. You want kids to be able to step over the line occasionally and
>not have lifelong injuries as a result. Climbing is a shitty teacher. People
>tend to go years or decades with zero consequences, then five seconds of
>inattention leads to a permanent limp.

Not that much different than having a backyard pool with toddlers in the house.

I believe that kids who grow up bushwalking, climbing, skiing, paddling, canyoning, surfing, fishing, sailing etc are going to end up being way safer in the mountains and on the ocean when they are adults. I'm not sure exactly why this is. Maybe if you start young you better develop that sixth sense that warns you when something is about to go wrong. Maybe starting young allows you to be comfortable in the environment and with yourself so you don't feel the need to act the d!ckhead in front of your mates.


One Day Hero
22-May-2018
9:07:29 AM
On 21-May-2018 Karl Bromelow wrote:
>Do you think the kind
>of climbing that pretty much any pre adolescent child in the known universe
>is practising falls within anything like the same risk category as proximity
>wing suit flying?

Obviously not. I was trying to point out that "exposing children to risks is good for them" has limits.
>
>I'm struggling to think of any
>other incident comparable with Tito's tragic death.

There was an incident with a Russian comp climber who took his infant daughter to the crag then dropped a tufa on her........that one was rather graphic.
>
>I'm wondering if you just don't like kids at the crag much. I could understand
>that.

No, it isn't that. I'll just reply to Estey to avoid doubling up.
One Day Hero
22-May-2018
9:33:50 AM
On 22-May-2018 Estey wrote:
>Risk is a function of consequence and likelihood. I reckon with good management
>you can reduce the likelihood of catastrophe enough.

I think there is a climbing-wide habit of rounding small probabilities down to zero, and then repeating the low risk action tens of thousands of times. In fact, it's a pretty common error that most humans make.
>
>In the case of younger children I'm actually way more worried about them
>at the crag when they aren't roped up and climbing.

Yeah, but this doesn't negate the risks of climbing, it gets added on. You don't really care whether your kid gets crippled climbing or gully scrambling. What should interest you is the total risk you're exposing your kids to.
>
>As for the percentage of kids maimed or killed ... that is out of my control
>... all I can do is hope and pray it doesn't happen.

Wrongo. The more risk you expose your kids to, the greater chance they will win the bad lottery. Along with all the other crag parents, your choices affect total population injury rates.

Bringing more young kids into climbing will result in serious injuries and fatalities of children at crags. Most of them won't be freak things like poorly assembled draws, it'll be the same basic mechanisms which kill and injure adults (inattentive belays, half-tied knots, loose rock, single points of pro failing resulting in ground falls, etc, etc).
The important point is that these accident mechanisms are well known and understood, and we can't stamp them out amongst adults. You guys are deluding yourselves if you think the population-wide results will be any different with kids.

>Not that much different than having a backyard pool with toddlers in the
>house.

I don't really think the benefits justify the risks there either.

>I believe that kids who grow up bushwalking, climbing, skiing, paddling,
>canyoning, surfing, fishing, sailing etc are going to end up being way
>safer in the mountains and on the ocean when they are adults. I'm not sure
>exactly why this is.

I think you're just making that up. It might be right, but it might not be.

Macciza
22-May-2018
10:16:33 AM
Well heres some comments from me as a parent... based on my understanding of the incident: where someone else is taking mine and some other kids climbing and thereby taking some responsibility to look after them. Apparently it was the first time he'd climbed without his dad there...

If you are taking people out climbing you owe them some sort of duty of care and more so when they are younger, or inexperienced... You need to really keep an eye on a whole bunch of things and try to keep them under control... Like, what is that mum doing with those new draws.... better check on them... right through to ok, the kids about to climb, lets have a good look at him before he sets off... I don't believe the wrongly setup draws would be unnoticeable to a decent casual inspection and certainly any moderately close view should make it fairly obvious...

It would seem that from the courts deliberation they decided not enough care was taken in overseeing the situation which may have avoided the accident... Which is how it should be as far as I am concerned... If you're taking people out climbing and you are promising to take care of them in some way then you need to actual try to take care of them, not just say that you will...

Yeah sure, statistically there will be more kid accidents with more kids climbing etc etc but this does not really fit in with general accidents that experienced adults have... sure, someone with no idea could put draws together like that and give them to an inexperienced adult who may not notice the danger etc but hopefully if an experienced adult was supervising they would be checking what was being done etc..

Basically it was an avoidable tragedy and the court decision hopes to make future people more proactive in their care to avoid such situations...
Estey
22-May-2018
10:18:50 AM
On 22-May-2018 One Day Hero wrote:

>I think there is a climbing-wide habit of rounding small probabilities
>down to zero, and then repeating the low risk action tens of thousands
>of times. In fact, it's a pretty common error that most humans make.

Understanding, mitigating and accepting risk is not the same as rounding it down to zero and pretending it doesn't exist.
>>
>>In the case of younger children I'm actually way more worried about them
>>at the crag when they aren't roped up and climbing.
>
>Yeah, but this doesn't negate the risks of climbing, it gets added on.
>You don't really care whether your kid gets crippled climbing or gully
>scrambling. What should interest you is the total risk you're exposing
>your kids to.

100% agree ... adequate supervision of non-climbing kids is massively important. Again you need to be aware of it, manage it and be comfortable with the total risk

I don't know about you but I get really scared when I see all those kids "bushwalking" out to Legoland and crawling all over blocs with 15m drops on the downhill side

>>
>>As for the percentage of kids maimed or killed ... that is out of my
>control
>>... all I can do is hope and pray it doesn't happen.
>
>Wrongo. The more risk you expose your kids to, the greater chance they
>will win the bad lottery. Along with all the other crag parents, your choices
>affect total population injury rates.

Agree with you from a theoretical statistical point of view. What I meant was I have no control over what other parent/guides are doing
>
>Bringing more young kids into climbing will result in serious injuries
>and fatalities of children at crags. Most of them won't be freak things
>like poorly assembled draws, it'll be the same basic mechanisms which kill
>and injure adults (inattentive belays, half-tied knots, loose rock, single
>points of pro failing resulting in ground falls, etc, etc).
>The important point is that these accident mechanisms are well known and
>understood, and we can't stamp them out amongst adults. You guys are deluding
>yourselves if you think the population-wide results will be any different
>with kids.

Agree accidents will happen. I'm not sure that last statement is totally correct if I'm choosing routes/crags/circumstances specifically for my child.
>
>>Not that much different than having a backyard pool with toddlers in
>the
>>house.
>
>I don't really think the benefits justify the risks there either.

Half a million Queenslanders can't be wrong



>>I believe that kids who grow up bushwalking, climbing, skiing, paddling,
>>canyoning, surfing, fishing, sailing etc are going to end up being way
>>safer in the mountains and on the ocean when they are adults. I'm not
>sure
>>exactly why this is.
>
>I think you're just making that up. It might be right, but it might not
>be.

Your right impossible to prove ... For what it is worth I did not make it up .. I have heard this independently from a couple of very experienced ski instructors and outdoor ed types. Come to think of it maybe the ski instructors where trying sell their wares.
One Day Hero
22-May-2018
10:48:42 AM
On 22-May-2018 Macciza wrote:
>If you are taking people out climbing you owe them some sort of duty of
>care and more so when they are younger, or inexperienced... You need to
>really keep an eye on a whole bunch of things and try to keep them under
>control.

I pretty much agree with everything you said, but can see how things would quickly get confusing. There's a twelve year old kid who is anything but a novice, climbs 8c, has all his safety stuff dialed, is quite likely more experienced than the supervising adult. And we're in an activity where personal responsibility is the accepted norm.

If you had been the guy watching the kids, would you have checked the draws? I doubt I would have.
One Day Hero
22-May-2018
11:41:10 AM
On 21-May-2018 Karl Bromelow wrote:
>And young children have been climbing to higher levels than you or I could
>dream of for many, many years now.

This brings up another couple of points for my parental responsibility rant. I know the Vertical Life dudes troll chocky for article ideas, this might be a good one for you guys to expand on.

1) Having gotten into climbing as a teenager in the mid 90s, I consider myself as being on the tail end of the first campus board and woody generation (at least the first ones who started using these tools in their teens). Now that generation is hitting their mid to late 40s, and the rates of debilitating elbow and shoulder injuries are somewhat alarming. A comical number of the "magazine guys" from my youth are having ruined joints operated on, with terms such as "worst elbows I've ever seen" and "hamburger mince" apparently being thrown around by surgeons. And this is people who started at age 16 or 18 and topped out at 8b or 8c. It's frankly making me rather nervous.
So, what do you reckon the long term health outcomes will be for the current generation of kids who are starting at age 5 and will no doubt go on to 9a and 9b?

2) Estey's point about teaching kids to manage risks. I reckon this can go the wrong way. You expose kids to risk so often that they become ice cold hardnuts, and then dial the risk way up beyond long term survivability as a result. I guess this has always existed in mountaineering, but it seems to have crept into rock climbing and pretty much every other "extreme sport".
For example, the Huber bros called bullshit on Nose speed records a decade ago because they thought things were getting too dangerous. Take a second to think about that. The "solo 8b on Cima Grande/first ascent of alpine testpieces in the Himalayas" dudes said something was getting too dangerous!?! And last year a young woman ate shit going for the record and is now in a wheelchair.....running it out and climbing fast to shave a few minutes off a stupid record. What a fuching waste. A couple of weeks ago Hans Florine (on his hundred and somethingth lap of the Nose) pulled a piece of gear and fuched his ankles to bits. No more speed climbing or running or probably walking normally for Hollywood Hans. I reckon the Hubers called it correctly, and the pigeons are coming home to roost for a bunch of people who have normalised some unreasonable risks.


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There are 76 messages in this topic.

 

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