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Chockstone Forum - Crag & Route Beta

Crag & Route Beta

 Page 1 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40
Area Location Sub Location Crag Links
VIC Grampians Northern (General) (General) [ Grampians Guide | Images ] 

Author
Iskra Crag update

Goshen
7-Aug-2017
2:01:36 PM
Trying to give some love to some way under-visited (and unlikely to get in a new guidebook) areas.
I've spent some hours updating the complex area of Iskra Crag on The Crag.

https://www.thecrag.com/climbing/australia/grampians/iskra-crag

There's about 86 routes, including all the original routes from the old North Gramps guide (all with with updated descriptions). I've only been up there twice, so have only added any extra route info to routes I'd had experience with, or located for sure. If you have any other information, please feel free to add it.

You can access the Western side from Hollow Mt Carpark, and the Eastern side from main road / near the Telephone tower (marked trail).

There's also a new sport cliff on the Eastern side (Interpretation Wall), and some other long - lost bolted routes on the Eastern Walls including a few closed projects on the Araps style compact wall.

Get up there!






dalai
7-Aug-2017
3:22:12 PM
Interesting to see Lemonade Wall still listed. This is now known as Project Wall...

https://www.thecrag.com/climbing/australia/grampians/iskra-crag/area/12975205

https://www.thecrag.com/climbing/australia/grampians/summerday-valley/area/440747346

Goshen
7-Aug-2017
3:33:22 PM
Oh right; had no idea... never made it over there, but makes sense, boulderers would have been there, for sure! Prob should be merged then, but might leave it to someone else until there's more info.
armstp
7-Aug-2017
4:42:14 PM
I have been visiting the Iskra area for many years [it is a good winter area] and thinking it needs sorting out. The old Northern Gramps guide got the cliffs incorrectly placed on the map on page 104, which has obviously caused you some confusion, as it has pretty much every visitor for years.

What your photo shows as Shadow Buttress is where it is marked [incorrectly] in the guide. That cliff is in fact Pigs in Space Buttress. The cliff marked as Pigs in Space Buttress in the guide was at that time an unclimbed block [but has a couple of routes on it now]. The real Shadow Buttress is not marked at all in the old guide book, but should be shown as being in front of Number 4, Sunstroke area. The initials for This is not Funny are still clearly visible.

The real Pigs in Space is on your Shadow Buttress and looking at your photo takes the obvious easy angled corner to the overlap about 2/5 of the way along from the left edge of your blue box.

Like I said the area needs sorting out. It is a good start to get the routes descriptions on thecrag, but it is important to get the actual cliffs and climbs correctly identified and labelled.
dalai
7-Aug-2017
6:28:38 PM
Lemonade wall offers 6m aid climbs which are now boulder problems. I say (sorry M9) just make a comment in the history section for Project wall and delete the Lemonade wall page...
Dave J
8-Aug-2017
10:38:14 AM
On 7/08/2017 dalai wrote:
>Lemonade wall offers 6m aid climbs which are now boulder problems. I say
>(sorry M9) just make a comment in the history section for Project wall
>and delete the Lemonade wall page...

I thought that Nalle had proposed changing the name from "Project Wall" to something else now tht the last project had been done.

Perhaps it should just return to "Lemon" wall since all the aid has been removed (and there's no more projects).

Goshen
8-Aug-2017
11:17:28 AM
Yeah I agree - the name should be returned :-)
Although I like the thought... Personally, I think it should remain Lemonade, to better reflect the FA's.

NB: Routes and areas can't be deleted, they can only be merged, which would duplicate the routes, but I can probably merge all the routes back together for full transparency. Location wise; it would be better to list the wall under Iskra Crag (same access), and remove it from Summerday.

What about route names though? The boulder names are way better than the aid names... but is it right to make that call? Obviously they are shitty routes (if aided); but awesome boulder problems. But we wouldn't having this discussion if the routes were significant - whoever comes along and free's a route doesn't get to rename it (normally).

Also back to Iskra propper (Eastern Side):
https://www.thecrag.com/climbing/australia/grampians/iskra-crag/area/12975493
- I'm chasing up a small unknown bolted line just above left of Goelro Plan
- Wondering if Septic Crank (25) was originally done on gear at that grade, because it's all ring bolts (not new ones), and is more like 23.
- Dutch ovens (21) is described where another line with 2 or 3 rings exists, but given the FA was Kevin Lindorff, I doubt the rings are his. Either it's a new climb next to it, or a retro. Anyone?



Dave J
8-Aug-2017
12:17:39 PM
On 8/08/2017 Goshen wrote:
>What about route names though? The boulder names are way better than
>the aid names... but is it right to make that call? Obviously they are
>shitty routes (if aided); but awesome boulder problems. But we wouldn't
>having this discussion if the routes were significant - whoever comes along
>and free's a route doesn't get to rename it (normally).

I think its generally ccepted that the first person to free climb a route can give it a name. Often if its been an aid route of some significance, the person who's freed it sticks with the original name but not always (Pegasus/Sheffield steel is the firt one to spring to mind since I was outthere the other day, but its not great example since the start of pegasu has yet to be freed). There was a discussion about this on chockstone at some point.
kieranl
8-Aug-2017
1:10:40 PM
On 8/08/2017 Goshen wrote:
>Yeah I agree - the name should be returned :-)
>Although I like the thought... Personally, I think it should remain Lemonade,
>to better reflect the FA's.
>
>NB: Routes and areas can't be deleted, they can only be merged, which
>would duplicate the routes, but I can probably merge all the routes back
>together for full transparency. Location wise; it would be better to
>list the wall under Iskra Crag (same access), and remove it from Summerday.
>
I'm pretty sure that you can delete routes and areas, but only if there's no history.

Thanks for doing this. It's quite a lot of work to do this sort of thing.

Duang Daunk
8-Aug-2017
8:05:53 PM
On 8/08/2017 Dave J wrote:
>On 8/08/2017 Goshen wrote:
>>What about route names though? The boulder names are way better than
>>the aid names... but is it right to make that call? Obviously they are
>>shitty routes (if aided); but awesome boulder problems. But we wouldn't
>>having this discussion if the routes were significant - whoever comes
>>along and free's a route doesn't get to rename it (normally).
>
>I think its generally ccepted that the first person to free climb a route
>can give it a name. Often if its been an aid route of some significance,
>the person who's freed it sticks with the original name but not always
>(Pegasus/Sheffield steel is the firt one to spring to mind since I was
>outthere the other day, but its not great example since the start of pegasu
>has yet to be freed). There was a discussion about this on chockstone at
>some point.

Are you bro's serious?
Messers kuu, BA, M9, Lacto, kieranl, gfdonc, jrc, imaseriousyounglizar, and, etc, are still alive!
Brave move of you bro's trying to change history like that before they are all chewing on daisy roots, clipped in or not!
BA
9-Aug-2017
10:46:00 AM
>Messers kuu, BA, M9, Lacto, kieranl, gfdonc, jrc, imaseriousyounglizar,
>and, etc, are still alive!

Still alive and enjoying life.

Hmmm, history eh? History tells all sorts of things. How climbing has changed. How climbing styles, ethics and equipment has evolved. Any attempt to rewrite history destroys the past. I thought Steve's use of Sheffield Steel (Steal?) instead of Pegasus was a great route name but he wasn't the first to climb the line was he? After talking with Steve he accepted that, although renaming routes when they were freed in the UK was acceptable, it wasn't the case in Oz. A 6m aid route doesn't have many points of aid in it, does it? Did Steve rename Ozy after he freed it?

As Lyle Closs wrote in 'Appeal for the unknown climber' (and I reprinted in the North Gramps guide 35+ years ago): "And just as the printing the names of the first to climb the route is a memorial to other mens dreams, so to climb that climb is lie in another man's grave. The grave may be the same. But it was not dug for you."

Use the original names, explain what has happened since and let the climbers of the future decide if they want to read about the the history of that particular climb.

Now it's time to toddle off towards senility ... zzz ... zzz ...
Dave J
9-Aug-2017
1:01:19 PM
On 9/08/2017 BA wrote:
>Hmmm, history eh? History tells all sorts of things. How climbing has
>changed. How climbing styles, ethics and equipment has evolved. Any attempt
>to rewrite history destroys the past. I thought Steve's use of Sheffield
>Steel (Steal?) instead of Pegasus was a great route name but he wasn't
>the first to climb the line was he?

Speaking of re-writing history, It was andy pollit who established Sheffield Steal not steve.

>After talking with Steve he accepted that, although renaming routes when
>they were freed in the UK was acceptable, it wasn't the case in Oz.

Ive honsetly never heard that changing the names of old aid lines when you freed them was unaccaptable. The various aid lines I've freed I've always left the name because I liked the history that it came with that. But I was lways under the impression that I had chosen to do that...In never realised there was a rule. Other historical interactions with the rock that have been acknowledged by the first free ascentionist include vandals carving their name athe the bottom of the rock (Madge McDonald etc). As far as Im aware there's no rule in australia that says you need to do this either but it is another nice way to add a sense of hirstory to a route.

>A 6m aid route doesn't have many points of aid in it, does it?

Are you suggesting it was nearly done free then....or just that it wasnt very significant as an aid route.

> Did Steve rename Ozy after he freed it?

He didn't but he could have and I think that would have been accepted.

I started climbing after you but I've always considered the moment that someone gets up a bit of rock "using just their hands and feet" (a phrase thats become popular in mainstream media in recent times), that this was the defining moment of a climb. I see aiding a line as being a definite step up from walking around the back and rapping down to see if it will go but still just a step towards the actual free climbing of the thing. I think in australia it's been that way since Henry Barber came out and just stormed up everything and re-defined what people considered to be climbable. Probably whether you started climbing before or after that trip of Henry's might effect how you think about things. Not long after that people stopped claiing things they were unable to free clim, the term project was adopted for something that people had got up without having managed to do it cleanly.

>Use the original names, explain what has happened since and let the climbers
>of the future decide if they want to read about the the history of that
>particular climb.

As boulder problems they are a significant contribution to grampians climbing and something that people are aspiring to do. I would vote for listing the boulder problems that have been established on this wall (thats what people wil be going there for) and add the aid climbing history as an interesting footnote.
BA
9-Aug-2017
6:15:58 PM
On 9/08/2017 Dave J wrote:

>Speaking of re-writing history, It was andy pollit who established Sheffield Steal not steve.

I'm obviously galloping towards senility rather than toddling!

>As boulder problems they are a significant contribution to grampians climbing
>and something that people are aspiring to do. I would vote for listing
>the boulder problems that have been established on this wall (thats what
>people wil be going there for) and add the aid climbing history as an interesting
>footnote.

Yup, explain their past.

>>A 6m aid route doesn't have many points of aid in it, does it?

>Are you suggesting it was nearly done free then....or just that it wasnt very significant as an aid route.

The latter. And I still think Lyle's article sums it remarkably well for me personally.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
9-Aug-2017
7:11:42 PM
On 8/08/2017 Dave J wrote:
>On 8/08/2017 Goshen wrote:
>>What about route names though? The boulder names are way better than
>>the aid names... but is it right to make that call? Obviously they are
>>shitty routes (if aided); but awesome boulder problems. But we wouldn't
>>having this discussion if the routes were significant - whoever comes
>>along and free's a route doesn't get to rename it (normally).
>
>I think its generally ccepted that the first person to free climb a route
>can give it a name. Often if its been an aid route of some significance,
>the person who's freed it sticks with the original name but not always
>(snip)

When I first read this I thought to myself; what a load of sanctimonious claptrap...
Then I thought; the next generations need educating; ... and further, I was surprised and a little disappointed that this line of thought was coming from a climber that I respect!

Tell me Dave J, how would you feel if someone retroed a route you put up?
In my opinion, retro-bolting and retro-naming are not dis-similar!


On 9/08/2017 Dave J wrote:
>Ive honsetly never heard that changing the names of old aid lines when you freed them was unaccaptable. The various aid lines I've freed I've
>always left the name because I liked the history that it came with that.
>But I was lways under the impression that I had chosen to do that...In
>never realised there was a rule. Other historical interactions with the
>rock that have been acknowledged by the first free ascentionist include
>vandals carving their name athe the bottom of the rock (Madge McDonald
>etc). As far as Im aware there's no rule in australia that says you need
>to do this either but it is another nice way to add a sense of hirstory
>to a route.
>

BA's response was accurate but lightweight enough that I feel that you (and perhaps others), didn't get the point he was making, so I will be more blunt in my response.
Retro naming a route is theft (and inconsiderate), pure and simple.
Don't do it.

>>A 6m aid route doesn't have many points of aid in it, does it?
>
Ah, this raises an interesting twist to the theme, and also a grey area where I am happy to compromise on my stated position outlined above.

I will give two examples that have different outcomes.
1. Sometimes aid was practiced on scrappy out of the way places (before the genre of 'bouldering' existed), and so the routes were of no 'real' significance to the first ascentionists...
In this case I doubt the first ascentionists would object to a renaming under the title of a new 'bouldering ascent'.

2. I thought long and hard before submitting for publishing in a guidebook a first ascent aid line I put up on a 10 m boulder at Mt Buffalo.
(Side note: BA is well familiar with it as he had tried it on aid many years previous to my successful ascent...)
Initially I thought a line of only 10 m isn't worth writing up.
What swayed me to submit it for publication was two things, first being a free line on the other side of the boulder already written up (actually one of two lines!).
The second was that (believe it or not) there exists a small but devoted group of people who actually still enjoy aid climbing and this particular line filled a grade niche that has bugger-all examples to aspire to for those adherents...
In this case, I'd be well miffed if it was renamed after a bouldering ascent, even though I acknowledge that this style of ascent is possible in the future...

In days of yore I practiced aid in scrappy locations, but none of the lines have been written up as I prefer them to remain as adventures for future generations. If they are bouldered cleanly as new lines then so be it, and the new ascentionists can have their moment of fame.


As a side note, I observe with a degree of chagrin-tempered amusement that free-climbs I and others established at a 'scrappy' location near Talong NSW, have since been safety-ised with bolts and claimed as first ascents by others!
I will be further amused if others come along later and miff those involved by further safety-ising 'their' routes, and possibly renaming them with the new lower standard of the day!!

By the way, my cohorts and I didn't write them up as new lines (even though some of them were), because we respected the real first ascentionists before us, that we knew had done stuff there, but we were unsure as to exactly what!

>As boulder problems they are a significant contribution to grampians climbing
>and something that people are aspiring to do. I would vote for listing
>the boulder problems that have been established on this wall (thats what
>people wil be going there for) and add the aid climbing history as an interesting
>footnote.

If the aid routes in question were put up as proper lines rather than practice only, then I disagree. They should retain their name and the first free ascent is noted as an 'interesting footnote'!
If they were put up as aid practice sessions, then it becomes a free for all and a clean bouldering ascent is valid for a first naming of the line involved.

Dave_S
9-Aug-2017
10:39:55 PM
An important point - to what extent do the boulder problems and aid climbs overlap? Do the boulder problems actually perfectly follow pre-existing aid lines, or are they separate routes?

The problems in this video - Last Action Hiro and Parallel Lines - appear to be more adjacent to or only partially following what look like logical aid lines.
Dave J
10-Aug-2017
1:10:47 AM
On 9/08/2017 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:

>When I first read this I thought to myself; what a load of sanctimonious
>claptrap...
>Then I thought; the next generations need educating; ... and further,
>I was surprised and a little disappointed that this line of thought was
>coming from a climber that I respect!

I think I was channeling my inner ODH in the previous reply. I stand by most of what I said though, even if I was a little blunt.

>Tell me Dave J, how would you feel if someone retroed a route you put
>up?
>In my opinion, retro-bolting and retro-naming are not dis-similar!

It happens. people have retro bolted old boulder problems I've done. Lame but no big deal, they werent signifcant things anyway (plus I bet they didnt even do the proper sit starts). I don't think this is a useful comparison....a lesser ascent doesnt overwirte history

A better comparison, I think, would be if a new 'better/cleaner" style became the new bottom line. Say ropes became unfashoinable. Old hat. And soloing or onsight solo became the new bottom line for claiming an ascent. Whoever did this first got naming rights... and how would I feel seeing the roped climbing history of Arapiles/gramps gradually overwritten? I would be pretty excited to see people pushing the limits but I would probably (like you) want to see the history and names of the original lines preseved (if only as a footnote).

>Retro naming a route is theft (and inconsiderate), pure and simple.
>Don't do it.

I never have. Be it an old aid line or (post 80s) a 'project' with a name. If I've managed to get up it I've stuck with the original name. I like the history of climbing and that lines have a past that you can choose to engage with. aid lines , like seventh pillar, cadena direct (If Id ever got up inquisition thats what I would have called it) or free routes like Carrigans "Leaps" in the bluffs (there were some sound arguments for calling it "Better than Leif").

I think you can steal from the future though too.Claiming an ascent of a thing youre not good enough to climb. Chipping and maybe aiding ? (Aiding being the less destructive of the two)
Dave J
10-Aug-2017
1:14:03 AM
contd...

On 9/08/2017 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>>>A 6m aid route doesn't have many points of aid in it, does it?
>>
>Ah, this raises an interesting twist to the theme, and also a grey area
>where I am happy to compromise on my stated position outlined above.
>
>I will give two examples that have different outcomes.
>1. Sometimes aid was practiced on scrappy out of the way places (before
>the genre of 'bouldering' existed), and so the routes were of no 'real'
>significance to the first ascentionists...
>In this case I doubt the first ascentionists would object to a renaming
>under the title of a new 'bouldering ascent'.

This is why I'm biting... this (pius the alternative is borng paperwork). I think as aid routes they dont have a lot of worth. I completely get why you might want to force your way up seventh pillar or ozymandias by whatever means necessary. But a little wall like that cant have been a big deal even at the time. For me I think it is also possible to steal from the future and this is a good case in point. Like chipping or just bolting/red tagging/claim staking something you never had a chance of actually free climbing (with all due respect to the original aiders nobody in the world was climbing well enough to free these back then).

>2. I thought long and hard before submitting for publishing in a guidebook

>The second was that (believe it or not) there exists a small but devoted
>group of people who actually still enjoy aid climbing and this particular
>line filled a grade niche that has bugger-all examples to aspire to for
>those adherents...In this case, I'd be well miffed if it was renamed after a bouldering
>ascent, even though I acknowledge that this style of ascent is possible
>in the future...

I kind of get this...but not really. I acknowledge it exists but its not a driving force for me.
If Im iinspired to climb something it is about getting myself better to a point that I am able to do it. Ive never considered aiding any more than reconaisance(and Ive done a bit in the name of that) I dont personally get any more satistfaction from the act of getting myself from the bottom of a line to the top by pulling on all the gear or getting from top to bottom its all a means to an ends. again this is just me. A product of austrailan climbing post henry barber.
>
>In days of yore I practiced aid in scrappy locations, but none of the
>lines have been written up as I prefer them to remain as adventures for
>future generations. If they are bouldered cleanly as new lines then so
>be it, and the new ascentionists can have their moment of fame.

Or they can leave them for others to find and cleanly aid again, or bolt to the crapper. Though once the bolts are there there is no longer the pretence of doing a new thing.

>By the way, my cohorts and I didn't write them up as new lines (even though
>some of them were), because we respected the real first ascentionists before
>us, that we knew had done stuff there, but we were unsure as to exactly
>what!

These grey areas are good. I like them. bouldering at arapiles you can never be qute sure what might have happened in the past.

>If the aid routes in question were put up as proper lines rather than
>practice only, then I disagree. They should retain their name and the first
>free ascent is noted as an 'interesting footnote'!

what's the first name you think of when you hear "procul harem", "yesterday", or "india"

>If they were put up as aid practice sessions, then it becomes a free for
>all and a clean bouldering ascent is valid for a first naming of the line
>involved.
For me its hard to imagine that the aiding wasnt just a wet winters mucking about. I think we agree its something to do with the level of intestment/comitment. I feel like in this instance the boulderers invested a lot more than the initial aid climbers. Imagine Madge McDonald insising that she was acknowledged for her endeavour with that particular peidce of rock.

Even with aid the goal seems to be eliminating aid. the old guidebooks were full of X eliminated 2 points of aid Y reduces aid to just 3 points...the end point of that being that Z managed climb with no points of aid. I think for climbers generally, this has been the starting point for a while now.

Dave J
10-Aug-2017
1:17:22 AM
On 9/08/2017 Dave_S wrote:
>An important point - to what extent do the boulder problems and aid climbs
>overlap? Do the boulder problems actually perfectly follow pre-existing
>aid lines, or are they separate routes?
>
>The problems in this video - Last
>Action Hiro and Parallel Lines - appear to be more adjacent to or only
>partially following what look like logical aid lines.

I agree, In this case I think there is so little in common between the aid lines and the free that the lines could sit concurrently.
rossco
10-Aug-2017
9:21:42 AM
From my understanding it's always been accepted tradition in Australia that the original name can't be changed, whether the first ascent was aided or not. The tradition is different in the UK, which is usually why it's been UK climbers freeing routes here who have tried to rename routes ie Andy Pollitt and Pegasus/Sheffield Steel or Paul Smith and Whistling Kite/Crack of Dawn.

I didn't realise that Lemonade Wall was Project Wall, but when we are putting out the next edition of the bouldering guide we are not going to rename the wall or boulder problems because it was once a place to practice aid climbing, we might add a mention of it's shady history though.

Goshen
10-Aug-2017
10:18:37 AM
On 10/08/2017 rossco wrote:
>From my understanding it's always been accepted tradition in Australia
>that the original name can't be changed, whether the first ascent was aided
>or not. The tradition is different in the UK, which is usually why it's
>been UK climbers freeing routes here who have tried to rename routes ie
>Andy Pollitt and Pegasus/Sheffield Steel or Paul Smith and Whistling Kite/Crack
>of Dawn.
>
>I didn't realise that Lemonade Wall was Project Wall, but when we are
>putting out the next edition of the bouldering guide we are not going to
>rename the wall or boulder problems because it was once a place to practice
>aid climbing, we might add a mention of it's shady history though.

That is a rather contradictory statement there...

However, if the naming of Project wall was only ever 'temporary' (Dave said Nalle was open to a new name now) AND assuming it was named in error - without realising the aid climbs existed, then perhaps the correct compromise is to keep the original "Lemonade" name for the wall, and lose the aid climbs*.

OR - is the new history of "Project Wall" now so entrenched that returning to an old name becomes impossible. It's no longer about 'history', but what climbers who climb there are going to refer to it by (and the real referee here is the guidebook editor).

The Crag does deal with alternate names well though. Is this insignificant little rock going to be: Project Wall (aka Lemonade Wall) (actually seemingly more likely, at this time)
or Lemonade Wall (aka Project Wall)?


* I think there's a general consensus in this particular case, that the aiding was just for a bit fun, and are not significant enough routes to retain. Although - the point was made the descriptions of both could live side by side, at least one The Crag.









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