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Chockstone Forum - Crag & Route Beta

Crag & Route Beta

 Page 2 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40
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VIC Grampians Northern (General) (General) [ Grampians Guide | Images ] 

Author
Iskra Crag update
dalai
10-Aug-2017
10:23:04 AM
On 10/08/2017 rossco wrote:
>I didn't realise that Lemonade Wall was Project Wall

C'mon Rossco - finger on the pulse of Aus climbing and all that... Would have expected you knew that! ;-)
johny
10-Aug-2017
10:36:43 AM
Ross is right. Its funny how some people assert their opinions about rock climbing style as a logical certitude.

In Yosemite Astroman was renamed from its old aid name after it was freed "I was not too happy with the route name Astroman when I first heard it. Sure, the word itself had a fabulous ring to it, but the newly named route already had a name. This was what disturbed me. Never mind that the old name was pedestrian: the East Face of the Washington Column. This was back in 1975, and the arrogant notion of re-naming a route once it had been freed was fairly new." Steve Roper from Supertopo.

At Flinders Island in Skull Cave I freed an 8 metre roof and called if Truffle Shuffle from the 80's movie Goonies. It shares the start to the Phantom put up by Mike Law in the 90's.

Well I renamed Skull Cave to Goonies Cave and want to have a bunch more Goonies inspired route names. The Phantom is kind of funny but I never liked the comic. Goonies is better I think. I doubt Mikl will be too pissed off. I hope.... errr... :) I didnt rename his route, mind you. Just the cave kind of. Everyone I know calls it Goonies cave, so regardless of what they use to call it in the old book, we call it Goonies cave now. Does this shed some light on a harmless transition in nomenclature?

IdratherbeclimbingM9
10-Aug-2017
9:21:51 PM
On 10/08/2017 Dave J wrote:
>I think you can steal from the future though too.Claiming an ascent of a thing youre not good enough to climb. Chipping and maybe aiding ? (Aiding being the less destructive of the two).
>
I think that your concept of aid climbing has it locked in to the stereotypical ancient concept of that genre of climbing.
Aid climbing has moved on and become 'clean aid' (hammerless) climbing (for the most part)...

Indeed, I would suggest that if you tried putting up an M7 (or harder) grade aid climb cleanly, that you would soon be converted as to what actually constitutes this genre of the climbing game we play.

As a side note I reckon that we have more in common than you'd first expect, as I find no particular joy in aiding anything less than M6, other than to access some magical places that my free climbing ability won't get me to. M6 and above however, is still for me a significant 'hook' that has plenty of adrenaline (fear factor?) potential involved, and it's the mental engagement with it by trying to do it cleanly that provides this.

~ but I digress, so back to ...
>For me I think it is also possible to steal from the future and this is a good case in point. Like chipping or just bolting/red
>tagging/claim staking something you never had a chance of actually free climbing

Stealing from the future would certainly be the case if something is chipped, and I agree that the game is diminished when bought down to a lower standard by whatever means; however while ever there are the likes of Alex Honnold stepping up to the mark to freesolo an El Capitan major route that historically involved pin scars etc, ... and without renaming the route in the process(!), then I think your premise is eroded somewhat! ☺

>what's the first name you think of when you hear "procul harem", "yesterday", or "india"
>
Honestly without doing some research to unearth any original names involved, I only know them by those titles, so you will have to forgive me my ignorant and parochial NSW upbringing!

>Even with aid the goal seems to be eliminating aid. the old guidebooks
>were full of X eliminated 2 points of aid Y reduces aid to just 3 points...the end point of that being that Z managed climb with no points of aid. I
>think for climbers generally, this has been the starting point for a while now.
>
Agreed, though this brings us back to the valid point that rossco stated clearly and which BA and myself (and presumably other oldies), are also voicing; and that is that here in Australia we don't re-name routes if they receive a better style of ascent, as we have enshrined a routes history in guidebooks since day one!

IdratherbeclimbingM9
10-Aug-2017
9:28:53 PM
On 10/08/2017 johny wrote:
(snip)
>Well I renamed Skull Cave to Goonies Cave and want to have a bunch more
>Goonies inspired route names. The Phantom is kind of funny but I never
>liked the comic. Goonies is better I think. I doubt Mikl will be too pissed
>off. I hope.... errr... :) I didnt rename his route, mind you. Just the
>cave kind of. Everyone I know calls it Goonies cave, so regardless of what
>they use to call it in the old book, we call it Goonies cave now. Does
>this shed some light on a harmless transition in nomenclature?
>
Everyone?
How far and wide have you canvassed that assertion other than amongst your circle of friends and acquaintances?
... And, would the result line up with mikl's doing of the same?
Heh, heh, heh.
johny
10-Aug-2017
10:06:47 PM
Everyone I know calls it Goonies cave, so regardless

>Everyone?
>How far and wide have you canvassed that assertion other than amongst
>your circle of friends and acquaintances?
>... And, would the result line up with mikl's doing of the same?
>Heh, heh, heh.
Everyone I know is by definition my circle of friends and acquaintances. :) Anyway, its called Skull Cave because it looks like a skull, really spooky actually. But Goonies is more fun. Not a big deal. I see your point that renaming a route seems to ignore your aid effort. I wouldn't want to do that although I totally agree with Dave as it is pretty much a truism that free climbing is the progression from aid. There is a strong history of renaming aid routes after freeing them just not in Australia so your assertion that it is inherently or morally wrong is patently false. That said, I will probably keep with the names of aid routes I free, so far that has been like one. And keep up the hard aid Rod! :)
Dave J
11-Aug-2017
1:06:25 AM
On 10/08/2017 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>I think that your concept of aid climbing has it locked in to the stereotypical
>ancient concept of that genre of climbing.
Not entirely...Ive always secretly been excited about skyhooks...their abiltity to hold a 2mm edge and where that could take you.
>Aid climbing has moved on and become 'clean aid' (hammerless) climbing
>(for the most part)...
Yes..though steve monks contents that ozzymandias is a grade or two easier these days becuse it has been scarred out after the first free ascent. Pesronaly I think hes just trying it on becue it is believable....but it is belivable...Ive done routes at frog that were only climbable becuse of the pin scars and I have heard of people aiding a route a bunch of times until the scars were big enough to make it climbable for them.

>Indeed, I would suggest that if you tried putting up an M7 (or harder)
>grade aid climb cleanly, that you would soon be converted as to what actually
>constitutes this genre of the climbing game we play.

I can imagine me doing this. But I think if some one came along and actualy free climbed something I'd aided acoss I would be happy for them to tke ownership.

>M6 and above however, is still for me a significant 'hook' that has
>plenty of adrenaline (fear factor?) potential involved, and it's the mental
>engagement with it by trying to do it cleanly that provides this.
And the routefinding...on multipitch aid climbing often the finding of a line carries through intot he free ascent.

>Stealing from the future would certainly be the case if something is chipped,
>and I agree that the game is diminished when bought down to a lower standard
>by whatever means; however while ever there are the likes of Alex Honnold
>stepping up to the mark to freesolo an El Capitan major route that historically
>involved pin scars etc, ... and without renaming the route in the process(!),
>then I think your premise is eroded somewhat! ☺

Fair enough, I just thought it was a better example that somone retrobolting an existing free route or aid climbing a route after it had been freed and trying to claim that as some sort of a thing. doing a route in lesser style is never going to fly but a new bottom line for good style might...Perhaps a better less futuristic example Ive just thought of...placing the gear on lead on the actual ascent....sounds obvious but but if that was the bottom line for a valid ascent it would totally rewrite the history of australian climbing (1985-2010).

>>what's the first name you think of when you hear "procul harem", "yesterday",
>or "india" Honestly without doing some research to unearth any original names involved,
>I only know them by those titles, so you will have to forgive me my ignorant
>and parochial NSW upbringing!

I'll let Imaseriousyounglizard fill you in on the details but they were signficant free climbing moments in australian histrory first 26,27&28 or thereabouts. I think Baxter was involved in the aiding of some of them but as free ascents they were noteworthy.

>>Even with aid the goal seems to be eliminating aid. the old guidebooks
>>were full of X eliminated 2 points of aid Y reduces aid to just 3 points...the
>end point of that being that Z managed climb with no points of aid.

You never hear reported that someone had managed to do an ascent using more aid than anyone else previously...the end goal of climbing is zero aid.

>Agreed, though this brings us back to the valid point that rossco stated
>clearly and which BA and myself (and presumably other oldies), are also
>voicing; and that is that here in Australia we don't re-name routes if
>they receive a better style of ascent, as we have enshrined a routes history
>in guidebooks since day one!

I honestly was not aware of this was even a concept until 2 days ago....anything Ive done that sits with this is good luck or good will... not abidance of lore. Whistling Kite was and excellent example of rosco's...I think when I was young and impressionable these were signficant ascents (lord of th erings is in the same boat in my book) and I now that I think about it other examples in the uk back this up. Had no idea that here in australia we do things differently.
Rossco
11-Aug-2017
8:54:17 AM
My feeling is that keeping the original name is a general rule to follow, but people shouldn't be afraid to break the rule when it suits. I can think of a quite a few examples where given route names have been overruled by the wisdom of the crowd ie Sick Nutter, which was originally called something else from what I understand. Fortunately, most of the old aid routes have been given great names. For my mind, Whistling Kite shits all over Crack of Dawn.
johny
11-Aug-2017
12:47:22 PM
>>>Perhaps a better less futuristic example Ive just thought of...placing the gear on lead on the actual ascent....sounds obvious but but if that was the bottom line for a valid ascent it would totally rewrite the history of australian climbing (1985-2010>>>

Most hard trad first ascents in the last 15 years or so worldwide have been established placing the gear on lead but I always wondered how all these 80's supposedly hard and scary trad routes with fixed gear(which usually seems to be missing now) were established in Australia. I know HB's ethic is pretty damn good, but it seems most people never bothered with this.

In my opinion it is total bullshit to hammer in a 3rp on abseil and leave a sling on it to clip for the first ascent. It seems that most people agree with "as long as you are honest about the style of ascent" but of course the style of first ascent is almost never written up. The amount of times the Arapiles guide mentions ground-up first ascents (like 5 out of 1300) fairly well demonstrates how rarely these occurred. Maybe you could let us in on the whole dirty truth Dave! :)

I don't get too worked up about how stoners in the 80's climbed but I always, every single time regardless of how much a pain in the ass it may be, place the gear on lead for first ascents and try to convince everyone else to do so, especially on "hard and scary" routes. Otherwise it is just delusion.

Preplaced trad gear on first ascents is kind of like having a 10 metre extendable cheater stick that you use to clip bolts on hard aid routes. What is the point?

nmonteith
11-Aug-2017
1:48:12 PM
Back to the topic itself - I believe Matt Brooks (or his brother?) may have placed some of those older bolts you found Goshen. I'm not sure though... There were certainly some mystery bolted routes there in the early 2000s when I checked that area out.

Goshen
11-Aug-2017
2:23:59 PM
Cheers Neil,
Yes, Matt did put up a couple of lines there; one of which I can identify, the other one not so sure (and being 20 odd years ago, understandably his memory is bit vague).

Quote, M9:
"I and others established at a 'scrappy' location near Talong NSW, have since been safety-ised with bolts and claimed as first ascents by others!
I will be further amused if others come along later and miff those involved by further safety-ising 'their' routes, and possibly renaming them with the new lower standard of the day!! "

Actually - this is the reason why I started this small project / discussion.
Iskra Crag was getting very obscure, but has received some more attention lately.

Looked like there were some good routes up there, and it was only a matter of time before climbers started repeating and retrobolting things. At least with some basic topos and descriptions, existing climbs can be 'protected', and new lines can be found without stressing about whether it was done before. Now all they need are some repeats. :-)
dalai
11-Aug-2017
3:19:38 PM
On 11/08/2017 Dave J wrote:
>Not entirely...Ive always secretly been excited about skyhooks...their
>abiltity to hold a 2mm edge and where that could take you.

Thought your preference was nails?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dt8ISoc0lcg

Stugang
11-Aug-2017
6:23:11 PM
Are we seriously talking about boulder problems that were once aided!???

If so what aid grade does that attract? Initially I thought " A- marshmallow" but even that seems too hard. M9 what you reckon? If an aid climb is too soft to be graded then does it exist?

Jokes on the original peeps that bothered to write up something that doesn't exist.
kieranl
13-Aug-2017
9:45:20 PM
On 8/08/2017 Duang Daunk wrote:

>Messers kuu, BA, M9, Lacto, kieranl, gfdonc, jrc, imaseriousyounglizar,
>and, etc, are still alive!
>Brave move of you bro's trying to change history like that before they
>are all chewing on daisy roots, clipped in or not!
>

Good of you to notice DD.
I generally prefer that the original climb/area names are kept I have, as a guidebook editor, unilaterally renamed at least one climb without consultation. I've also attempted to change one area name, Generation Gap, to Cervantes Wall. But I never carried that over from the ACA site to The Crag.
Project Wall was never one of the more useful names - a few of us have "project walls", in my dreams anyway.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
13-Aug-2017
11:11:13 PM
On 11/08/2017 Stugang wrote:
>Are we seriously talking about boulder problems that were once aided!???
>
>
>If so what aid grade does that attract? Initially I thought " A- marshmallow"
>but even that seems too hard. M9 what you reckon? If an aid climb is too
>soft to be graded then does it exist?
>
Are you trying to stir up the old Aid Grades seppo A vs Aussie M debate again?
Only hard aid has a hook that's no good for fishing with, stuey!
Heh, heh, heh.

>Jokes on the original peeps that bothered to write up something that doesn't exist.

Goshen
7-Sep-2017
7:41:54 AM
The small corrections / changes have been made, and The Crag has auto generated the new PDF Guide to download. Lemonade wall retains it's name, but both boulders and aid routes are listed. I hope that keeps a lid on the discussion.

https://www.thecrag.com/climbing/australia/grampians/iskra-crag




IdratherbeclimbingM9
7-Sep-2017
8:01:21 AM
On 7-Sep-2017 Goshen wrote:
>(snip) both boulders and aid routes are listed. I hope that keeps a lid on the discussion.

The discussion was good (at least I enjoyed it), and what's more it was pleasantly without rancour!

I'm surprised that you bothered to list the aid routes if they were never written up to start with...
I would've simply mentioned them in the history section (if one exists) for interest only.
;-)

Thanks for the work you put into upgrading the 'guide'.
BA
7-Sep-2017
10:08:50 AM
They were written up in the guide I produced about a quarter of a century ago. Along with the following "Most, if not all, should go free to those made of the right stuff." Why did it take so long for them to go free?

IdratherbeclimbingM9
8-Sep-2017
9:07:07 AM
On 7-Sep-2017 BA wrote:
>They were written up in the guide I produced about a quarter of a century
>ago. Along with the following "Most, if not all, should go free to those
>made of the right stuff."

It sounds like you might know more about those aid lines?
Heh, heh, heh.

>Why did it take so long for them to go free?
It takes a while for boulderers to get adventurous and drag their mats to old new discoveries?
;-)
mikllaw
9-Sep-2017
4:23:01 AM
Aid climbing is just like climbing, doing something unnecessary in the most difficult way. Don't forget your helmet!
http://imgur.com/gallery/dwsrK

IdratherbeclimbingM9
9-Sep-2017
7:30:52 AM
On 9-Sep-2017 mikllaw wrote:
>Aid climbing is just like climbing, doing something unnecessary in the
>most difficult way. Don't forget your helmet!
>http://imgur.com/gallery/dwsrK
>
Awesome find mikl! She's really got nailing it down pat!

I reckon her climbing grades would also be 'naturally' high, due to her incredible flexibility.
High steps? Pfft, easy. Pumped out forearms? ... Just do an overhead heel-hook instead!

With those skills she'd clean up the Iskra Crag aid lines easily...
Heh, heh, heh.

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