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Chockstone Forum - Crag & Route Beta

Crag & Route Beta

 Page 3 of 3. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 57
Area Location Sub Location Crag Links
VIC Arapiles The Organ Pipes (General) (General) [ Arapiles Guide | Arapiles Images ] 

Author
Loose anchors on Conifer Crack
Wendy
2-Jun-2017
8:41:58 AM
On 1/06/2017 gfdonc wrote:
>On 1/06/2017 Wendy wrote:
>>Other than being
>>Gordy specials (galvanised and bolts straight through the chain, a crappy
>>set up),
>Crappy? Apart from the justifiable criticism of using galv, what's your
>point here?
>
The chain link is not a flush surface for tightening against. The bolt would need to be proportionately longer to accomodate the extra width of the chain and who know if they actually are. There is more leverage on the bolt for being the chains width out. Depending on the size of the bolt head, a washer may be a critical part of the system. THe next link of chain down is usually pushing out from the rock as a result of trying the get the top link flush. They are far from an ideal set up, but the galvanised bit is probably the worst of it. Really, who in their right mine places gal these days?
>

bigchris
2-Jun-2017
10:45:46 AM
I've used the anchors on the Tannin/Wyrd starting ledge many times. That gully to get down to the ground might be a gr3/4 down climb, but usually after doing those climbs I'm knackered, and its a really safe a well thought-out placement. Yeah, you could build an anchor, or you could rap off of the other side at the top of horn piece, but this is clean, out of the way and most importantly, safe. Its about 28m to the ground so easily done on a 60.
One Day Hero
2-Jun-2017
11:46:15 AM
On 30/05/2017 Dave_S wrote:
>I didn't get a chance to go back up there with a 17mm spanner, but might
>be able to over Queen's Birthday if they're not already fixed then. As
>far as I know, no one has tried to tighten them already, and if that's
>the case then I'd try tightening it before assuming that the nut has seized.

What happened to just chopping the things?
Dave_S
2-Jun-2017
12:27:30 PM
They turned out to be reasonable anchors instead of the ringbolts with failed glue that I had been expecting!
kieranl
2-Jun-2017
12:41:32 PM
I have few issues with them:

First are they necessary? Very subjective. Removing the adventure of descending the Organ Pipes Gully is a negative in my book. I'm a great supporter of rap anchors for removing erosion pressure on gully descents but I think the Organ Pipes Gully isn't a great erosion problem.

Second : Increased congestion at the rap anchors below.

Third: Potential increased rockfall from people abseiling into the gully. This is the big one for me now that I see where they are. I'll try to observe what happens when parties use this descent. If, as I suspect, this causes rockfall down the gully then they probably need to go.
One Day Hero
2-Jun-2017
1:49:37 PM
On 2/06/2017 kieranl wrote:
>Third: Potential increased rockfall from people abseiling into the gully.
>This is the big one for me now that I see where they are. I'll try to observe
>what happens when parties use this descent. If, as I suspect, this causes
>rockfall down the gully then they probably need to go.

At what point did things go from people needing to justify placing retrobolts, to just banging them in and the "anti bolt people" need to justify chopping them?

You've already made a solid case for pulling this anchor, nobody attempted to make a case for adding it prior to doing so. Just pull the bolts.
One Day Hero
2-Jun-2017
1:54:54 PM
On 9/05/2017 gfdonc wrote:
>The rap anchor at the top of Conifer Crack is loose. I am guessing the
>glue has failed in the left-hand bolt, and presumably suspect in the other.
> I haven't witnessed this at close range, but when I was on Tannin 2 weeks
>ago a climber reached the anchor and was able to pull one out with his
>fingers.

The level of comprehension of how bolts work in the general climbing population is a bit disturbing. Pretty odd that this anchor was originally reported as glue-in. I am extremely skeptical that anyone pulled that trubolt out with their fingers and then replaced it.

Grinder
2-Jun-2017
2:05:31 PM
Agree with you on those points Kieran.

I wonder how many people you will be able to watch doing the rap though. I really can't picture most climbers of Conifer Crack choosing to approach that set-up and bring a less experienced partner or party with them, then doing two raps, instead of walking off.

I'm going to guess that an individual has put the set-up in because they do the route often with beginners or clients. Saves them dealing with their inexperienced crew getting down the back way and gives them an abseil as well to supplement their adventure. Just a guess.
gfdonc
2-Jun-2017
2:57:46 PM
On 2/06/2017 One Day Hero wrote:
>The level of comprehension of how bolts work in the general climbing population
>is a bit disturbing.
I trust this was a general comment and not directed at the OP.

> Pretty odd that this anchor was originally reported
>as glue-in.
As clearly stated originally I was observing from a distance. I was too far away to be able to see if it was an expansion or glue in. In my experience when a bolt is 'that' loose (rather than just spinning) it's usually due to glue failure.

> I am extremely skeptical that anyone pulled that trubolt out
>with their fingers and then replaced it.
I could discern he was able to pull the bolt outwards (and it was loose) but didn't see it come out of the hole.
One Day Hero
2-Jun-2017
3:40:57 PM
On 2/06/2017 gfdonc wrote:
>On 2/06/2017 One Day Hero wrote:
>>The level of comprehension of how bolts work in the general climbing
>population
>>is a bit disturbing.
>I trust this was a general comment and not directed at the OP.

Was "general climbing population" too subtle?

>I could discern he was able to pull the bolt outwards (and it was loose)
>but didn't see it come out of the hole.
>

You sure it wasn't just the hanger moving in and out along the exposed thread? Once a trubolt is sliding in the hole, there is no way to tighten it up (even if the nut wasn't galled), and the bolt is fuched.

The good Dr
2-Jun-2017
4:13:16 PM
>
>You sure it wasn't just the hanger moving in and out along the exposed
>thread? Once a trubolt is sliding in the hole, there is no way to tighten
>it up (even if the nut wasn't galled), and the bolt is fuched.

Actually, there is a way, but those without the knowledge should not comment on things they know nothing about!
One Day Hero
2-Jun-2017
4:21:22 PM
On 2/06/2017 The good Dr wrote:
>Actually, there is a way, but those without the knowledge should not comment
>on things they know nothing about!

Well how about you enlighten us? I reckon a $10 trubolt with a galled nut and the sleeve sliding in the hole probably belongs in the bin, but am interested in your solution.

The good Dr
2-Jun-2017
4:40:39 PM
On 2/06/2017 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 2/06/2017 The good Dr wrote:
>>Actually, there is a way, but those without the knowledge should not
>comment
>>on things they know nothing about!
>
>Well how about you enlighten us? I reckon a $10 trubolt with a galled
>nut and the sleeve sliding in the hole probably belongs in the bin, but
>am interested in your solution.

Given the pic I reckon it is probably a galled nut. The solution is to hammer in a U shaped shim(s) between the washer and the bolt plate that forces the cone to locate correctly. These can be made from oversized washers with a notch cut out. These will also have the ability to have the ends turned up so it cannot fall out. Problem solved.

The reality is that removal and replacement is the best solution.

widewetandslippery
2-Jun-2017
4:42:39 PM
Truebpolts have a very limited tolerance for hole diameter. Getting a a worked hole,easy todo on rope, or to tight hole from been a tight arse can lead To many forms of failure. I prefer dynabolts if mechanical anchors are to be used and would rather a carrot than a truebolt.
One Day Hero
2-Jun-2017
4:46:48 PM
On 2/06/2017 The good Dr wrote:
>Given the pic I reckon it is probably a galled nut. The solution is to
>hammer in a U shaped shim(s) between the washer and the bolt plate that
>forces the cone to locate correctly. These can be made from oversized washers
>with a notch cut out. These will also have the ability to have the ends
>turned up so it cannot fall out. Problem solved.

Won't help if the sleeve is also sliding in the hole (oversized hole, or worn out sleeve nubbins). Not sure I trust that part of the report though :)



>The reality is that removal of the anchor and patching the holes is the best solution.

ftfy

ajfclark
3-Jun-2017
8:13:08 AM
On 2/06/2017 Grinder wrote:
>I'm going to guess that an individual has put the set-up in because they do the route often with beginners or clients. Saves them dealing with their inexperienced crew getting down the back way and gives them an abseil as well to supplement their adventure. Just a guess.

I guide. I would never use those bolts with clients. They are not located in a place that facilitates that kind of activity. They are located around the arete from a ledge. It'd be hard for the client to get started on that station, hard to see you clients on the way down, they end up on a ledge unsecured, etc

The back way is awesome with clients and way more fun as an adventure. If I really wanted to abseil them somewhere after doing conifer, I'd head back up onto the ledge above D Major and rap them behind Piccolo.

The only use I can see is if maybe you were using something finishing up the 2nd pitch of Conifer Crack as a warm up for something else on Red Wall?
kieranl
5-Jun-2017
5:40:09 PM
Turns out the nut wasn't properly galled. It had stopped at some thread damage but unscrewed easily. It appears that because of the thread damage the bolt hadn't been properly tightened hence it was slightly loose. The bigger risk though was from the nut which didn't seem secure. Despite having come prepared with shovels and rakes and implements of destruction it was quite trivial. I removed hangers and chain from both bolts and left the studs for now. That will give a bit of space for a bit of a chat about whether these anchors have a future.

 Page 3 of 3. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 57
There are 57 messages in this topic.

 

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