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Crag & Route Beta

Area	Location	Sub Location	Crag	Links
VIC Arapiles	Pilot Error Cliffs	(General)	Pilor Error Wall	[ Arapiles Guide \| Arapiles Images ]

Author

Pilot Error Bolt

One Day Hero

13-Nov-2015
9:59:09 AM

On 12/11/2015 potex wrote:
>I'm a very experienced worker with tools, point me in the right direction
>and the way you want the job done and I can help you guys out in making
>our climbing safer for everyone.
>
>Do I need to send in a CV?? :-)

Nope, rebolting is total piss, you just need to go out with someone experienced for half a day (to learn about the same 10 fuch ups everyone makes when they first start rebolting)

Also, life will be much easier for you if the first expansion bolt you pull and the first ring you glue in aren't behind your head and up in a roof.


Macciza

13-Nov-2015
10:10:26 AM

Please not a ring or UBolt .... Anything (within reason) else ...

One Day Hero

13-Nov-2015
10:19:46 AM

Macca, the bolt is drilled straight up in a roof, there's only one bolt on the route. I really think a ringbolt is the go in this situation.

Jayford4321

13-Nov-2015
11:57:34 AM

On 13/11/2015 FatBoy wrote:
>And I'd also further qualify by saying that I am pro-bolt in this case.
> If you are going to fall on that route - and plenty of people do - by
>definition it's because you wouldn't have the arms and so placing the small
>cams that would protect the 3rd and 4th moves over the roof would be impossible.

Climb out test, rtrn 2 stance, rest, strangle Ur fear, rtrn 2 high point an carry on?
1nc past lip restn on jugs an placing pro should b a doddle.
Tha bolt probly woulda remained ok cept for ovawait eddy takin a victory jump onta it from tha face above.


gordoste

13-Nov-2015
12:28:19 PM

On 13/11/2015 One Day Hero wrote:
>Macca, the bolt is drilled straight up in a roof, there's only one bolt
>on the route. I really think a ringbolt is the go in this situation.

+1

gfdonc

13-Nov-2015
12:51:24 PM

Getting the existing sleeve anchor out will be the crux.

kieranl

13-Nov-2015
1:01:55 PM

If the sleeve is already creeping out then it should be straightforward - it's when the sleeve barely projects and the hole is really tight (or it's a corroded non-stainless) that you have problems. Loosen the nut a bit - light tap with the hammer to free the cone, pliers on the sleeve and wiggle it out.

martym

14-Nov-2015
3:02:15 PM

On 13/11/2015 One Day Hero wrote
>Also, life will be much easier for you if the first expansion bolt you
>pull and the first ring you glue in aren't behind your head and up in a
>roof.

In this case you could probably reach it with a 6ft step-ladder, sounds like the OP would have one?

argos44

14-Nov-2015
3:08:57 PM

Surely any bolts replaced at Arapiles should be of the highest standard. EN959 spec 316SS Ringbolt with Epoxy and it probably will never need replacing again

Jayford4321

14-Nov-2015
3:09:09 PM

On 14/11/2015 martym wrote:
>On 13/11/2015 One Day Hero wrote
>>Also, life will be much easier for you if the first expansion bolt you
>>pull and the first ring you glue in aren't behind your head and up in
>a
>>roof.
>
>In this case you could probably reach it with a 6ft step-ladder, sounds
>like the OP would have one?

A 6ft groundfall needs a bolt?
Spare us please.


ajfclark

14-Nov-2015
5:11:42 PM

I think the bounce off the ledge into the more serious ground fall is what the bolt is protecting... Most people crop their shots like this:

But the occasional one slips through:

potex

15-Nov-2015
9:34:31 PM

I reckon this bloke's head was pretty happy that the bolt was:

a) There.
b) Didn't rip out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSsA13PXhLo

I

martym

15-Nov-2015
10:55:13 PM

On 15/11/2015 potex wrote:
>I reckon this bloke's head was pretty happy that the bolt was:
>
>a) There.
>b) Didn't rip out.
>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSsA13PXhLo

Amusing video, titled "how not to climb Pilot Error". On the contrary - considering the leader's nerves and questionable climbing skills, I think they had a good set up:
1. Both wearing helmets
2. Belayer paid out appropriate slack,
3. But was tethered to an anchor to ensure he didn't zipper up to the face while the climber could have taken a ground fall.

Compared to the guys in the photo above, these two did well to protect themselves.

If there hadn't been a bolt - the leader would have had to place gear; and with that amount of nerves, he'd have sensibly backed out of the lead. The bolt may have given him a false boost of confidence.

One Day Hero

16-Nov-2015
5:12:37 PM

On 15/11/2015 martym wrote:
>2. Belayer paid out appropriate slack,

What are you talking about? The dude broke his thumb on the ground at the bottom of his swing. 70cm more slack and his head would have hit the same rock......way too close!

>The bolt may have given him a false boost of confidence.

What are you talking about? It isn't the sixties anymore, people fall off things now!

Olbert

16-Nov-2015
5:38:53 PM

On 15/11/2015 martym wrote:
>On 15/11/2015 potex wrote:
>>I reckon this bloke's head was pretty happy that the bolt was:
>>
>>a) There.
>>b) Didn't rip out.
>>
>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hS
>A13PXhLo
>
>Amusing video, titled "how not to climb Pilot Error". On the contrary
>- considering the leader's nerves and questionable climbing skills, I think
>they had a good set up:
>1. Both wearing helmets
>2. Belayer paid out appropriate slack,
>3. But was tethered to an anchor to ensure he didn't zipper up to the
>face while the climber could have taken a ground fall.
>
>Compared to the guys in the photo above, these two did well to protect
>themselves.
>
>If there hadn't been a bolt - the leader would have had to place gear;
>and with that amount of nerves, he'd have sensibly backed out of the lead.
>The bolt may have given him a false boost of confidence.

I give the guys in the bottom photo above a much better safety rating than the dudes in the video. The main danger (asides from a dodgy bolt) is the close proximity to the ledge - which the dude in the video scraped. The dudes in the photo don't have a silly belay anchor and the belayer is standing directly beneath the first bit of gear with very little slack. If at any point in time the climber fell, he shouldn't go anywhere near the ground and the belayer should be fairly stable in his position.

The belayer in the video is standing back and is anchored in by a a rope, this seems to me this technique is most commonly employed by bumblies and rarely employed by experienced climbers (when there is little to no weight difference). On this route - with the potential of a grounder - the belayer position and anchoring is a bad combination. If an belay anchor was employed then the belayer should have been tight on it - but much better that the belayer not have a belayer anchor and stand in the correct position underneath the first bit of gear.

So in terms of what matters - ie belayer competence and positioning - I pick the helmetless dudes in the photo.


pmonks

17-Nov-2015
4:16:18 AM

On 16/11/2015 Olbert wrote:
>So in terms of what matters - ie belayer competence and positioning -
>I pick the helmetless dudes in the photo.

Plus they're using a pee bottle, rather than stinking up the crag by pissing everywhere. Good job fellas.


Doug

17-Nov-2015
12:16:05 PM

It looked a bit like the guy in the video was lucky he didn't fall out of his harness. It looked pretty slack when he stood up and pulled it back into position ...


ajfclark

17-Nov-2015
12:57:39 PM

On 15/11/2015 martym wrote:
>2. Belayer paid out appropriate slack,

Looks to me like he pulls in an arm length and locks off at 1:28-1:29.

kieranl

17-Nov-2015
1:52:20 PM

The belay ledge on Pilot Error is about 15m up. Any belayer who doesn't clip in there is a fool.

(edit : I was trying to be more polite and detailed in my response but the Chocky Border Security objected for no good reason - so I opted for blunt)

martym

17-Nov-2015
5:58:09 PM

On 16/11/2015 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 15/11/2015 martym wrote:
>>2. Belayer paid out appropriate slack,
>
>What are you talking about? The dude broke his thumb on the ground at
>the bottom of his swing. 70cm more slack and his head would have hit the
>same rock......way too close!
70c more? That's a lot of extra slack.
It looks like the guy climbing had his leg wrapped in the rope. He spends a long time faffing at the edge and it looks like he is about to stand up on the ledge. He is really lucky his belayer was vigilant enough to not pay out another handful.

>
>>The bolt may have given him a false boost of confidence.
>
>What are you talking about? It isn't the sixties anymore, people fall
>off things now!
The insinuation was that he was happy there was a bolt that saved him from a grounder, I assume? I guess he would have been happier still if there was another bolt at the lip, perhaps if it was grid bolted?

There are 91 messages in this topic.