Crag & Route Beta

Author	Climbing banned Centennial Trev Blue Mtns - NPWS
Hipster 1-May-2015 1:03:41 PM	On 28/04/2015 nmonteith wrote: >Its very hard to enforce the removal of bolts as it would be classed as >a workplace health and safety issue. I imagine they will have to use trained >high access workers with all the expenses involved. No it's not Neil. If anyone wants to be involved in the removal of these bolts they can contact the NPWS officer mentioned in the first post or send a PM to the initial poster on this topic. They will come on board as volunteers and be covered by Parks insurance policy whilst tidying up the area. This is what I was told when I met with Parks this week. The lads who went out and sunk steel in the arch were told at the time it was a bad idea...
Mr Poopypants 1-May-2015 4:22:38 PM	>Just to be padantic....the plateau is state forest not nat park btw :) > Sorry Rod, of course you are right. Too early for me to be interwebbing, obviously ... I did some new routing there years ago and confused it with the GoS, left or right off the road - never my strong point! :-) I was just trying to say they do keep in touch with what is going on. G.
rodw 1-May-2015 7:55:42 PM	Rgr agree, I think its naive if you think you ever think your secret crag is actually that secret...though always surprised on various bash bashing crag hunting exercises what I do stumble across in terms of human use/occupation...I've always assumed the powers at be are always watching and tend to adjust my activities accordingly.
nmonteith 2-May-2015 10:27:35 AM	On 1/05/2015 Hipster wrote: >On 28/04/2015 nmonteith wrote: >>Its very hard to enforce the removal of bolts as it would be classed >as >>a workplace health and safety issue. I imagine they will have to use >trained >>high access workers with all the expenses involved. > >No it's not Neil. If anyone wants to be involved in the removal of these >bolts they can contact the NPWS officer mentioned in the first post or >send a PM to the initial poster on this topic. They will come on board >as volunteers and be covered by Parks insurance policy whilst tidying up >the area. This is what I was told when I met with Parks this week. > The lads who went out and sunk steel in the arch were told at the time >it was a bad idea, so go and pull them out, tidy up the area, and find >somewhere more discreet next time to bolt. I stand corrected then! Although I do question what this insurance policy covers? I only made that point as when the cave up at Flinders Peak (QLD) was banned - the NP wanted the climbers to remove the bolts. But when it was explained to them what that would involve (aiding on skyhooks, placing new 'dogger' bolts etc etc) they decided that they were not in a position to cover this activity under their insurance, and thus their enforcement requirement for the bolts to be removed was revoked. Since most insurance companies don't cover climbing at all (even sport climbing) then I do question if hard aid would be covered? If an accident was to occur and someone wanted to sue?? BTW I am all for the removal of bolts at this crag - I just don't think in reality NP could promise to cover this activity. But I could be wrong.
Stuartt 3-May-2015 9:49:39 AM	Does anyone know if Parks is open for discussion on the closure. I understand that the hanging draws are a eyesore and they are easily removed. Removing the bolts from the arch without causing any damage is pretty much impossible. With regards to the trails, who ever built them seemed to put a lot of thought into the process as the approach takes a line only over rock to avoid erosions that has hampered a lot of other crags in the mountains. It saddens me to see a area closed and saddens me even more that other climbers would support it. It would be good to see the area re-opened with a few basic rules such as no fixed gear, no fixed lines and a ban on further bolting in the area. I am happy to remove the draws and the fixed lines for parks if they wish me to do so.
Macciza 3-May-2015 11:34:16 AM	Seriously? The time for discussion was before they started bolting ... Yep, hanging draws are easily removed, so why do people insist on leaving them, apart from the 'gym experience' ... Removing bolts from anywhere they have been put is quite possible, in fact probably fairly easily ... Creation of new trails in a previously unmanicured area is not necessarily a good idea .... It saddens me, many other climbers, bush walkers and National Parks, that the area was even bolted... It saddens me that so many newer climbers seem to support it, but at least some can see the folly . . . Though I do agree partially with your final comments - it would be good if the area were able to be climbed at without fixed gear (ie no bolts/rings), no fixed lines ( obviously, we're not on a mountain), and no further bolting, track development, toilet facilities etc Oh and a better name for the area, like just The Arches . . .. What was the thinking behind Centennial Trev? To make it as popular as the Glen? Complete with all the rubbish and the toilet area on the bushwalking track, and gym junkies on day leave? Spare us all .....
Macciza 3-May-2015 12:35:54 PM	Yes I do! Even bolted horizontal roofs of several metres... Have a fair bit of aid experience as well... Am not about to give away all my tricks, but believe me, it's not as 'impossible' as you might think. .. I think bush walkers have far less impact then climbers, and are generally far better bush-toilet trained... They have also been going there repeatedly for many many decades now ... Bolts are fixed-gear ie non removable protection. How long have you climbed? Look it up .... Cleaning up after others who are prepared to leave the mess anyway doesn't do much really, and I don't think I am being negative about it ... No I haven't climbed there, but I believe there is more then one route, even if some people say there is only one worthwhile route out there .... Yes the name certainly is a joke, just not a very good one .... I don't believe the popularity of the area has anything to do with it, it was a bad idea to start with, and hopefully the banning will avoid too many more similar occurrences elsewhere ...
Macciza 3-May-2015 1:39:16 PM	No I haven't but I have spoken with a few people who have and it's really a no-brainer, no need to go there in order to know that it is not a good place to be bolting ... My reading of previous posts is that there are already people helping out and in touch/working with NP over the area, so I don't think you should claim yourself as the only person offering to help ... The other night at the gym I had someone consult me regarding ring removal at this site, and I gave them a basic run down of different ways to do it, and that some prior experience is needed . . . If you think it's impossible, you shouldn't even be thinking of doing it let alone actually attempting it ... It's is something that should be done by people who know, or at least have a very good idea of, how it should be done. I don't think beginners should be doing it or it could end up worse . . .
Macciza 3-May-2015 2:19:14 PM	Then why did you say earlier that 'Removing the bolts from the arch without causing any damage is pretty much impossible.' ?? Can you safely remove height safety systems you've installed? So you have no need to return now you've 'ticked' the routes, hmmm, what about the people who have gone there repeatedly (for non climbing reasons) for years and hope to continue to do so ?? I think it's more of a pity that they and others are unable to enjoy the area the way it originally was ... Merely being in a gym does not a 'gym junkie' make; perma draws at crags, 'put the draws on' dogging and a non-trad climbing diet are far more likely indicators . . . Yeah, check out the main roof at Little Italy, bolted on lead ....
Macciza 3-May-2015 2:57:14 PM	Depends what you call 'damage' I suppose .... I don't include carefully patched holes as such . . They can quite easily be removed with minimal noticeable 'damage' .... Good luck . . .
Stuartt 3-May-2015 3:39:00 PM	That got less than productive. Deleted some shit. Happy climbing people
E. Wells 3-May-2015 3:44:13 PM	Wow. There it goes. Thats a new low.
E. Wells 3-May-2015 3:45:51 PM	Adios.
Jdodds 3-May-2015 4:48:00 PM	A few guidelines are certainly the way to go, there is no point destroying a few great lines especially some of the best all weather roof clbing the mountains has to offer. There is no need for such negativity Macca
Macciza 3-May-2015 5:06:36 PM	On 3/05/2015 Jdodds wrote: >A few guidelines are certainly the way to go, there is no point destroying >a few great lines especially some of the best all weather roof clbing the >mountains has to offer. There is no need for such negativity Macca There are guidelines, have been for ages; the bolsters were apparently made aware of this and continued anyway. So maybe 'actually following guidelines' is the way to go . . . There was no point in destroying the pre-existing natural environment for a few lines . . . I don't see why i am being singled out as being 'negative' when others are expressing the same view ... Do you really think that all bushwalkers visit the place for a few minutes and never return? Or that climbers are the only ones to explore the area? Or that they have had no impact? You might be surprised that many walkers go there many times over many years, and have done so for many decades, and probably for decades before you were born. Would you still be going there in a few years, 10 or 20 yrs? Would you have gone there if it wasn't bolted?
marykay 3-May-2015 6:09:01 PM	I think everybody - climbers and bushwalkers - should be allowed to enjoy the beauty of this area. And it should be clear that people stick to the guide lines to keep the nature enjoyable for everybody, e.g. don't leave your rubbish, not use it of course as a toilet, stick to the tracks. Removing the quick draws is a good idea. Bolts should stay as they are, they don't destroy the natural environment and many of them are not even visible just if you take a closer look. Many of the lines are pretty awesome, not just the arch. You can't say climbers destroy the environment more than bushwalkers, you can't separate people in two groups. I like bush walking AND climbing. And were I accept big fences and signs for hikers I can handle a couple of bolts. Cheers
IdratherbeclimbingM9 3-May-2015 6:30:31 PM	On 3/05/2015 Stuartt wrote: >That got less than productive. Deleted some shit. Happy climbing people ? I read your posts earlier before you deleted them, and did not consider them contentious enough to warrant that kind of action so I am bemused that you felt the need to do so. Without actually quoting your point of view by going back with various internet techniques, I got the strong impression (reading between the lines when I first read your posts), that since you were debating in favour of leaving the bolts, though were happy to remove draws and fixed ropes from them, that you may well have been one of the bolters involved... Is this the case? As an aside, the other thing about your deleted posts that bemused me was the fact that it seems you are new to the forum, with relatively few posts, and yet you were questioning the integrity of Macciza in respect of 'has he ever done hard aid'. Admittedly this was along the subject line of it allegedly being hard to remove bolts from an overhang; but in my opinion if you ever want to advance your skills in hard aid you couldn't have been debating with a more knowledgeable person on the subject for it! ☺
Stuartt 3-May-2015 7:17:26 PM	Few posts are from the fact I put my energy into climbing routes. Rather than posting about routes I have never been on in a forum. I deleted the posts because they were un-constructive bickering. It's so disappointing to see climbers who are for the chopping of bolts. I'm sure Macca is a nice dude but it seems wrong that he wants the bolts removed. He probably has the contacts and knowledge to speak with parks on the matter as he has developed areas in the past. It would be better to see the collective wisdom on this forum come up with a decent plan to see the area reopened rather than destroyed. The arch was not my work but the hard work of someone else who put a lot of time and money into the area to provide new routes for everyone to enjoy.
IdratherbeclimbingM9 3-May-2015 7:34:49 PM	On 3/05/2015 Stuartt wrote: >Few posts are from the fact I put my energy into climbing routes. >Rather than posting about routes I have never been on in a forum. >I deleted the posts because they were un-constructive bickering. >It's so disappointing to see climbers who are for the chopping of bolts. > >I'm sure Macca is a nice dude but it seems wrong that he wants the bolts >removed. He probably has the contacts and knowledge to speak with parks >on the matter as he has developed areas in the past. >It would be better to see the collective wisdom on this forum come up >with a decent plan to see the area reopened rather than destroyed. >The arch was not my work but the hard work of someone else who put a lot >of time and money into the area to provide new routes for everyone to enjoy. > > Bickering for some is the very essence of their coming onto Chockstone. ;-) Since you are new to the Chockstone forum I will state an obvious point (that has arisen often in the past), which is that someone putting a lot of time and money into equipping routes inappropriately cuts no ice with groups such as 'Dangerouser Cliffs Australia'. In my opinion it would be better to see the collective wisdom of the climbing community come to consensus before developing sites that have a high probability of being contentious with NPWS.
Stuartt 3-May-2015 7:43:50 PM	If bickering, beard stroking and finger pointing is all that happens here I am happy to leave this forum. Seems like a complete waste of time if you are not on here to protect areas. See you at the crag.

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