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Should GriGris be alllowed FOR LEADING in gyms?

Richard Delaney

10-Feb-2011
9:25:22 AM

On 10/02/2011 davidn wrote:
>There's really two different questions - what should we allow for top-roping,
>and what should we allow for lead.
>
Thanks Dave, you're right. Let's sort out what the question is. Also the thread title seems to be inconsistent with the poll options.

For Top Roping I've always struggled with the issue of whether it should be getting people ready for "the real thing". I'd like to say yes however I suspect 95% of gym climbers never get out there on rock. In tht case - given the reality of the job and impossible level of supervision and boredom and $ - gym opperators would seems to little choice. Build it as safe as possible. Hence the prevelance of Slow-Go pulleys at the top of all the routes. These little guys spin freely in one direction but lock in the other (beautiful bit of engineering!) and have a round turn of rope as part of the threading.

With Slow-Gos, all feeling of lowering is lost.

As for leading hmmm...

Richard

maxdacat

10-Feb-2011
9:36:10 AM

On 9/02/2011 garbie wrote:
>>
>Mike/SICG

Hi Mike....I think it should be up to the climbers personal preference as long as they know how to use their device.

Just worth noting that SICG has a rule stating "no gri-gri's and ropes under 10mm". I took this to mean gri-gris are fine on ropes over 10mm and proceeded to use mine. No one pulled me up on this but i gather they are not allowed at all.


nmonteith

10-Feb-2011
9:46:56 AM

Apart from teaching 'bad habits' what are peoples problem with auto-lockers? As a leader (and belayer) i like to know that if something weird happens like rock-fall or an awkward slip, the belay device will lock up no matter what - even if the belayer is knocked unconscious or is day dreaming.

People can still day-dream and be distracted with an ATC so I don't accept that argument.

I use an autolocker almost exclusively in the outdoors, only being forced to swap to an ATC when someone want to use double ropes. So when I am indoors and have to belay with an ATC I find it unnerving and certainly a bit out of my comfort zone. I can happily belay with one its just not my usual style and, much like using someone elses safety gear makes me nervous.

My vote is certainly to allow people to use whatever they want, but for the gym owners to 'screen' the user's rope and belay device on entry - each and every time to eliminate people using ropes of too small diameter for the intended autolocker.


pmonks

10-Feb-2011
9:59:27 AM

On 10/02/2011 nmonteith wrote:
>As a leader (and belayer) i like to know that if something weird happens
>like rock-fall or an awkward slip, the belay device will lock up no matter
>what

"No matter what" is overstating the safety of gri-gris a tad, don't you think?

It didn't apply the day that poor little puppy dog got turned into a Korean entree. The last ground fall I saw in a gym was due to incorrect usage of a gri-gri too...


nmonteith

10-Feb-2011
10:12:27 AM

I'm sick and tired of people using the very occasional failure of autolockers as an excuse for not using them. Let me propose a real world example for any Gri-Gri knockers out there...

You lead a route and get 3m above a bolt. I'll simulate being unconscious by letting go of the brake hand and lying on the ground with my eyes shut. You get to choose which belay device I'm using - a Gri Gri or an ATC. Now you have to jump off.

So which one do you choose?


ajfclark

10-Feb-2011
10:22:57 AM

I down climb to the bolt, clip in hard, pull up enough slack through the ATC to rap down, rap down and render assistance.


cruze

10-Feb-2011
10:24:36 AM

In relation to the original question, it seems that most people on this forum will be comfortable using any device put in front of them. Perhaps the most important sections of the climbing gym users to ask are the instructors and new users? If one device is harder to instruct/maintain vigilence over then perhaps that would answer the question? It seems like your points against the devices in the first post, Garbie, answer this question.

Cliffhanger grants you a lead pass that is specific to the type of device tested on - grigri or not grigri.

IMHO a non-autolocking device with a mid-diameter rope over a large diameter top anchor is the best top-rope system (I actually prefer the slow pulleys). Simple, cheap and encourages good technique that is transferable to any device. That said, I quite like having a rest while belaying if my partner is dogging a route, so a autolocker can help ease the pain on my weak weak forearms...


nmonteith

10-Feb-2011
10:24:48 AM

So for you it is safer to DOWN SOLO a route than use a Gri Gri? Awesome.


ajfclark

10-Feb-2011
10:26:21 AM

No idea Neil, thinking out loud and happy to be made to think more.


garbie

10-Feb-2011
10:39:15 AM

On 9/02/2011 Richard Delaney wrote:
>Mike,
>do you include slo-go's as assisted braking devices?
>Richard

I'm only talking leading here, may not have been clear. We have slo-goes for the top-ropes, wouldn't run a gym without them really.

What do you think, Richard?


pmonks

10-Feb-2011
10:41:03 AM

On 10/02/2011 nmonteith wrote:
>I'm sick and tired of people using the very occasional failure of autolockers
>as an excuse for not using them.

I never said anything about not using gri-gris (I happen to use one myself) - all I pointed out is that your statement "the belay device [gri-gri] will lock up no matter what" (emphasis added) is BS, pure and simple.


Eduardo Slabofvic

10-Feb-2011
10:42:58 AM

On 10/02/2011 nmonteith wrote:
>I'm sick and tired of people using the very occasional failure of autolockers
>as an excuse for not using them. Let me propose a real world example for
>any Gri-Gri knockers out there...
>
>You lead a route and get 3m above a bolt. I'll simulate being unconscious
>by letting go of the brake hand and lying on the ground with my eyes shut.
>You get to choose which belay device I'm using - a Gri Gri or an ATC. Now
>you have to jump off.
>

Very good. I'll give you another real world example.

Person how learns to belay on Gri Gri and doesn't know how to control break line, has left hand holding Gri Gri in open position whilst using right hand too fee out slack. Note: No control of break line. Leader falls, rope whizzes through device before belayer has time to think to let go of leaver, leader hits ground.

This happened to me, and I will never ever ever be belayed leading with a Gri Gri, and is also why I will never accept the Gri Gri as the device to teach beginners on, and as gyms are where most beginners will get their experience, and this thread is about climbing gyms, I will never accept that people should be taught to belay with a Gri Gri. People should only use a Gri Gri/Eddy/what ever other kind of funk once they have the experience required to use it correctly.

All equipment, knots, etc can be used incorrectly resulting in danger, and as for vaguing out whilst belying, I also hold the view view that correct belaying technique where the belayer must control the device at all times is the best way to avaid lapse in concentration. The Gri Gri will reward you for not paying attention by letting you get away with poor belay technique. Only guilty people get away with things.


nmonteith

10-Feb-2011
10:53:27 AM

So you would down-solo then Eduardo?


nmonteith

10-Feb-2011
10:55:50 AM

To me its like saying you should just learn to drive better in a 1960s Datson rather than relying on fancy technology such airbags, crumple zones, seatbelts, ABS and stability control which 'might' not work all the time.


Miguel75

10-Feb-2011
10:58:16 AM

On 10/02/2011 nmonteith wrote:
>So you would down-solo then Eduardo?

Is crying an option?

EDITED: In all seriousness you've raised a question that I've been thinking a bit about Neil. I'd love to know what others would do in this situation. I'm thinking I'd try to sling something with a draw/draws and then lower myself down???


Sonic

10-Feb-2011
11:13:38 AM

On 10/02/2011 cruze wrote:
Perhaps the most important sections of the climbing gym users to ask are the instructors
>and new users? If one device is harder to instruct/maintain vigilence over
>then perhaps that would answer the question?

Firstly let me point out I am an instructor at SICG.

All the devices are hard to be totally vigilant on. In all honesty, you tend to pick up punters belaying wrong on top rope more than leaders and even then you get some real shockers on ATCs. It comes down to the training process. In our case, the climber needs to pass an assessment before leading, demonstrating correct usage on their preferred belay device. They are then signed off ONLY for this device.

The main concern here though is the 'I learnt outdoor/elsewhere and don't need your help' character. As we did not teach them, we have no way of telling ability prior to the assessment. These guys tend to treat us like we don't know what were on about and therefore bring bad habits to the gym and refuse to change and don't like being told they are wrong - even though most of us are more experienced on rock than they are. It then looks bad when they slag us off as gym nazis for telling them they can't lead.

My main point is its the training methods used, not the device and in the gym that is impossible to control with people who come in that have learnt to climb elsewhere. I was made to use an ATC or munter hitch for the first 6 months when I learnt to climb and I am extremely grateful. Unfortunately, many others dont get this experience which we then have to deal with. At the end of the day, a 'grigri-only' user made to use an atc is just as dangerous as an atc user wrongly using a grigri or a sum.


Eduardo Slabofvic

10-Feb-2011
11:22:10 AM

On 10/02/2011 nmonteith wrote:
>So you would down-solo then Eduardo?

I don't go sport climbing in the first place

yankinoz

10-Feb-2011
11:37:17 AM

On 10/02/2011 Eduardo Slabofvic. wrote:
>
>Person how learns to belay on Gri Gri and doesn't know how to control
>break line, has left hand holding Gri Gri in open position whilst using
>right hand too fee out slack...
>
>This happened to me, and I will never ever ever be belayed leading with
>a Gri Gri...

I would never ever ever be belayed leading by that person who doesn't know how to control the brake line.

Agreed that learning to belay on a GriGri is bad. Teach on ATCs and I would suggest that Gyms should check lead climbers/belayers on ATC usage for a 'pass/fail' then allow them to actually belay with whatever they want.

-Rob


nmonteith

10-Feb-2011
12:08:33 PM

My 'worst case scenario' is that the leader rips off a big block and then also falls off - the block then brains the belayer, and then the leader gets caught by the rope at the end of the fall. In this situation you obviously don't have the ability to downclimb - as you are already falling. I've taken quite a few big falls in my time with holds breaking, and I've certainly dodged a fair few flying rocks on belay. Even if the belayer doesn't gets knocked unconscious - I can see that being hit by even a small falling rock will cause extreme pain and obviously 'distract' the belayer from holding the rope! With an autolocker this isn't a problem*

This isn't an argument about sport vs trad. Loose rock and big falls happen in both trad and sport. Even on trade routes.

* Peter Monks disclaimer - obviously not 100% of the time.

gfdonc

10-Feb-2011
12:13:16 PM

The gri-gri cases that worry me are where the device hasn't locked up, rope has fed through in a hurry, the belayer has received rope burns and let go of the rope, leader decks.

What I'm saying is that while you could imagine plenty of scenarios where a grigri will save you (unconscious belayer etc), in the real world there have been a number of instances where it hasn't.

With that in mind and the practical issues (heavier, and you can't belay or rap on double ropes with one), I've never been inclined to get or carry an autolocking device.

Now, I'll just invalidate all that by announcing I caved in and bought one last night. Gri-gri 2. It's small and light. It's cool. It's gear.
Need a belayer Eduardo?

There are 73 messages in this topic.