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grade table for the masses


garbie

2-Jul-2010
5:46:58 PM

I'm getting a poster together for the new gym that tries to explain climbing grades. Its going to have a table like this:

If you can climb a grade: You could climb:
1 A carpet
2 A ladder
3 The easiest climb at Mt Arapiles
12 The north face of the Eiger
16 The hardest bit of rock climbing on the south col route of Mt Everest (if you could breathe)
19 The hardest climb in Oz in 1971
34 The hardest climb in Oz
37 The hardest climb in the world!

Does anyone have any interesting additions, and corrections welcome of course!

e.g what grade is - a coconut tree, an average brick wall, ...

Hugh

2-Jul-2010
6:11:20 PM

whats the hardest climb in oz?


garbie

2-Jul-2010
6:28:03 PM

not sure really, there's a few 34's, no 35's as far as I know...

Hugh

2-Jul-2010
6:51:52 PM

locations?

bl@ke

2-Jul-2010
7:01:04 PM

Mr Pink 34 Blue mountains
Sneaky old fox 34 Blue mountains
Too hot to handle 34 Blue mountains
White ladder 34 Nowra
There are a few 33/34s too and the project next to Cobwebs at Arapiles is reckond to be 34

bl@ke

2-Jul-2010
7:08:19 PM

A brick walls grade depends on how much of the mortar is scraped away, I would say 23-25 without climbing shoes.

egosan

2-Jul-2010
9:14:21 PM

On 2/07/2010 garbie wrote:

>19 The hardest climb in Oz in 1971

I am not sure this is true. Just glancing at Louise's Arapiles guide I see Morfydd (20) 1968 Moore and Dewhirst.


ajfclark

2-Jul-2010
9:18:52 PM

I seem to remember that it was graded 19 when it was climbed though. Simey's guide says something along the lines of "back when 19 was the hardest grade at Arapiles this was one of the hardest"... and it's 19 again in his guide...

[Edit: Correct quote from Simey's guide is "Back in the dark ages, when there was no route harder than 19 at Arapiles, this was considered one of the hardest" ]


Chuck Norris

2-Jul-2010
9:21:04 PM

13 you can solo Bard in trainers using vaseline instead of chalk.

[i hope you've got good PI insurance]


MattyB

2-Jul-2010
10:55:55 PM

This could stir up the pot!! Hasn't the hardest climb in the land of Oz now become 'The Wheel of Life' after Mr E. Pringle's sport grading at 9a/5.14d/35?? Which essentially makes it an extremely hard free-solo a metre off the ground, and now not a V16 boulder problem.... : |


phillipivan

3-Jul-2010
12:47:46 AM

According to Heinrich Harrer, author of the white spider, and member of the first party to summit the Eiger Nordwand, the classic route has pitches as hard as UIAA Grade 5. Which translates to a Ewbank 14, which by all acounts, including Mr Twight's, really doesn't tell the full story.

I can't wait for someone to top out on Bard and then go book their ticket to Kleine Schneidegg.


garbie

3-Jul-2010
3:22:45 AM

On 3/07/2010 phillipivan wrote:
>According to Heinrich Harrer, author of the white spider, and member of
>the first party to summit the Eiger Nordwand, the classic route has pitches
>as hard as UIAA Grade 5. Which translates to a Ewbank 14, which by all
>acounts, including Mr Twight's, really doesn't tell the full story.
>
>I can't wait for someone to top out on Bard and then go book their ticket
>to Kleine Schneidegg.
>

thanks Phillip. I had a feeling it was harder than 12!

egosan

3-Jul-2010
9:59:32 AM

On 2/07/2010 ajfclark wrote:
>I seem to remember that it was graded 19 when it was climbed though. Simey's
>guide says something along the lines of "back when 19 was the hardest grade
>at Arapiles this was one of the hardest"... and it's 19 again in his guide...
>
>[Edit: Correct quote from Simey's guide is "Back in the dark ages, when
>there was no route harder than 19 at Arapiles, this was considered one
>of the hardest" ]

Ok, can any of you climbing history boffins tell me what was the first grade 19 in Australia? What was the first 20?


IdratherbeclimbingM9

3-Jul-2010
10:44:16 AM

On 3/07/2010 egosan wrote:
>tell me what was the first grade

Lieben: Gd 17, 201 m, in the Warrumbungles, put up in 1962 by Bryden Allen and Ted Batty, was well known as Australia's hardest climb in the mid to late 60's.

& re the quoted by ajfclark;
>when there was no route harder than 19 at Arapiles

Hmm. Reminds me of the mindset behind the magical Mikl Gd 23.
Heh, heh, heh.

On 3/07/2010 davidn wrote:
>I know there's a lot that fits each grade, but I think it'd be an interesting
>discussion as to what really comprises a move on a 14, 18, 21 etc (as in
>boulderers always talk about the hardest move being a V12 - but what WAS
>that V12 move? A huge dyno? A crimp with no feet?).

Hmm. Many a brew has been consumed after the event, in arguing the merits of grading systems.

>And that it would show up some disparities.

~> Got that in one!
Heh, heh, heh.

Wendy

3-Jul-2010
6:48:14 PM

>On 3/07/2010 egosan wrote:
>>tell me what was the first grade
>

It might have been Werewolf, Sol. Subsequently upgraded and possibly downgraded again by the inimitable Simey.
>
>
>On 3/07/2010 davidn wrote:
>>I know there's a lot that fits each grade, but I think it'd be an interesting
>>discussion as to what really comprises a move on a 14, 18, 21 etc (as
>in
>>boulderers always talk about the hardest move being a V12 - but what
>WAS
>>that V12 move? A huge dyno? A crimp with no feet?).

I can't see how you could ever come up with anything even close ... I've seen grade 28 sport climbers unable to string 2 moves together on grade 17 hand cracks. I frequently use small intermediates or high footholds or dyno on moves an average sized person just reaches through on remarkably low grades sometimes. Someone rather tall watching me on a 23 once said if he could hold onto what I was using he'd be climbing 26. Moves that someone is fine on off the deck they might find desperate several pitches later with some air beneath their feet. Ditto in relation to where the gear is. Some people are hopeless on granite slabs or on roofs. Everyone's experience of climbing is different and our understanding of grades is entirely subjective. I will never know what 22 feels like to you, only what it feels like to me and I'm pretty sure my experience of climbs is often a little unique. People have their strengths and weaknesses, techniques they have or haven't mastered, reach, flexibility or middle aged spread they have or haven't got and so on. Even the mere title of hold is mobile. What I call a hold, you might not. What is a hold at the start of the day is so not a hold by the end of the day. It all depends on what you can actually hold! All of which leads to plenty of debate about the grades of routes to fuel conversations and internet forums for centuries.

Wendy

4-Jul-2010
9:23:00 AM

On 4/07/2010 davidn wrote:
>Bah - Wendy, that's no fun!

I'm going to be a party pooper again ...
>
>I do realise that on routes, particularly long ones, there is often a
>great variety of holds which can comprise the final grade, but I think
>that's less often the case with bouldering where often there's only one
>reasonable set of holds to make up the problem, and the main differences
>are how people orient themselves on the holds. I find I scum more while
>route climbing than when bouldering.
>
>As you've noted there's a difference between the moves required on different
>styles of climb and one should always be wary of calling oneself a "grade
>X" climber as on slab, crack, offwidth (!!) or face climbs, whatever is
>your weakness, you may find it's not true. Regardless, there is generally
>some consistency in what's required to climb - as you said, high-stepping
>and crimping on shorter moves can get you through a grade 23 of one type
>whereas the same with longer moves might be a 26 (whether you can do that
>move at height is another thing entirely). Once you put all the types
>of grade 23 together as above, you could potentially have a list of moves
>required to get up one. Some would be similar across almost all grades
>(grabbing jugs for example) whereas some I'd expect to come in at later
>grades and then have variations - for example gastons, which in later grades
>will be gastons using body tension onto aretes / flat holds (rather than
>proper grippable sidepull holds) - example being "Brown Shadow" from Progression
>(V13 wasn't it?).
>
>Anyhow, it's mostly a thought experiment. I suspect if you had 20 people
>write down all the moves required to climb a grade x through y (specific
>and well known climbs, like say Bard through Kachoong), there would be
>a great deal of consistency and some interesting debate.

I'd be interested to see if there was any consistancy ... In the last few years I have done 4-5 routes (between 23 and 27) that used a knee bar above the head. Does that mean that we should put knee bar above the head down as a skill require on routes 23 and above? From working climbs and problems with other people, I have found there are many different ways to do even quite hard routes and problems and how one climbs it depends on one's rock reading skills, preferences for styles/techniques, physical limitation etc etc. One's movement repetoire also affects how you climb. When I guide, I have 4 kids following me on the same easy route. There are trillions of different combinations of holds, and I'm pretty sur if you looked at our movement patterns, they will look very different. Beginners tend to look for the obvious large downward facing holds whereas with experience, one realises you can use holds facing many other directions and after a while, do some subconsciously. Does this happen at any particular grade? I don't think so. I think it comes from doing a reasonable amount of varied climbing and is more affected by the climbs you choose than the grades they are. Does Trapeze suggest that grade 11 climbers should be able to do thin traverses?

Just to take a quick look at bouldering (of note, I boulder no where near v13). I choose to do Animal Acts with a heel hook next to my hands and the reach with a cross through of my left hand. This is not the most popular way of doing Animal Acts! However, it is far easier for me than the face on move that is the most obvious and common solution. Which way is the V3 way? Bum Drag, I can do with a series of heel hooks or squatting face on. Tall people probably choose the series of face hooks and swear squatting under the line of holds is impossible. I still think climbing is all a subjective experience and we all choose move to do based on our strengths, preferences and skills and I'm going climbing now and everything I do today will look like I may as well be on a completely different route to Anthony...

Grade subjectivity
>wouldn't necessarily change as a result, but it might help a few noobs...

4-Jul-2010
12:33:44 PM

On 3/07/2010 egosan wrote:

>Ok, can any of you climbing history boffins tell me what was the first
>grade 19 in Australia? What was the first 20?

Having a quick look through Ewbank's Blue Mountain guide:
Zacherius 19,M1 on Narrow Neck was done on 10/11/1964
Electra & Colosseum Corner, both 19, on Sublime Point were done on 14/1/1965
Gemini 20 at Piddo was done on 9/12/1966
Janicepts 21,(M0) at Piddo was done on 15/12/66

That should make things a bit easier to locate dates.

In the original Araps guide there were no climbs graded 19. In volume 2 of the Araps guide (the black guide), Werewolf was graded 18 and done in November 1966, The Rack was 19 (April 1968), Morfydd was 19 (29/6/1968), Death Row grade 19 was done on 30/7/1967

Death Row would appear to be the first climb graded 19 at Araps.

egosan

4-Jul-2010
1:23:15 PM

Thanks for taking a look, Bill. You have added a few climbs to my to do list. I love the feeling and aesthetic of these early climbs. Death Row in particular. I did Death Row earlier this year. What a terrific and intense climb. Sitting on top of the pinnacle, having negotiated that sentry box, very satisfying.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

4-Jul-2010
7:20:12 PM

On 4/07/2010 davidn wrote:
>the moves required for 100 people doing 100 different grade (snip)

A fair while ago, for a few years I had the luxury of climbing most lunch hours on short sandstone routes/problems at Manly Dam, from the quarry and on further around the southern escarpment to it. I often did this with other climbers, some of whom were newbies to the game.
I had solo tried many of those routes/problems until I had got up them consistently cleanly; and when I introduced others to them I was amazed at the sequences that worked for them, as compared to what I had found easiest.
I then set about trying to climb those same routes/problems in the different styles that I had witnessed to improve my repertoire of moves. I lost a lot of fur doing so(!), but found it a pleasant variation to the game.

Towards the end of that period, when I had some of the highball things well wired due to many previous ascents, I was a little amazed that others used to think me sandbagging them when I took them to do the route. I used to take satisfaction after they reneged by casually soloing them to demonstrate that I was serious!

vonClimb

4-Jul-2010
7:41:26 PM

Had a couple of additions:

1 A carpet
2 A ladder
3 The easiest climb at Mt Arapiles
14 The north face of the Eiger
15 Grade of the first climb done entirely with nuts (I'm specifically speaking of nutcracker in yosemite)
16 The hardest bit of rock climbing on the south col route of Mt Everest (if you could breathe)
18 The hardest climb in England in 1914 (Flake Pitch)
19 The hardest climb in Oz in 1971
33 The hardest crack in the world
34 The hardest climb in Oz
37 The hardest climb in the world!

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