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How smart / green are we all


evanbb

3-Dec-2008
7:40:10 PM

On 3/12/2008 Atomic_Tomatoes wrote:
>If more people "Buy" 100% green power where does it actually come?

It comes from lots of seperate generators, who sell Origin their RECs, and then Origin retire them on your behalf. They are VERY HEAVILY regulated by ORER (Office of the Renewable Energy Regulator), so rest assured that they are doing the right thing. Some of those RECs even come from Sydney Water, as we just sold a butt load.


Eduardo Slabofvic

3-Dec-2008
7:59:50 PM

On 3/12/2008 evanbb wrote:
>I reckon the best thing individuals can do is:
>1. Switch to 100% Green power
>2. Install solar hot water/evac tubes (depending on where you live)
>3. Vote Green. They are unlikely to run the country, but it's the strongest
>signal available to the major parties that green issues are important.
>4. Ride your bike
>5. Insulate your house
>6. reduce/re-use/recycle
>7. Go climbing.

8. Grow as much of your own food as possible, and trade any surplus it with other people you know.


wallwombat

3-Dec-2008
8:31:56 PM

>On 3/12/2008 evanbb wrote:
>>I reckon the best thing individuals can do is:
>>1. Switch to 100% Green power
>>2. Install solar hot water/evac tubes (depending on where you live)
>>3. Vote Green. They are unlikely to run the country, but it's the strongest
>>signal available to the major parties that green issues are important.
>>4. Ride your bike
>>5. Insulate your house
>>6. reduce/re-use/recycle
>>7. Go climbing.

>On 3/12/2008 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>8. Grow as much of your own food as possible, and trade any surplus it
>with other people you know.

9. Brew your own beer.
10.Grow your own buds.

Atomic_Tomatoes

3-Dec-2008
9:07:00 PM

On 3/12/2008 evanbb wrote:
>On 3/12/2008 Atomic_Tomatoes wrote:
>>If more people "Buy" 100% green power where does it actually come?
>
>It comes from lots of seperate generators, who sell Origin their RECs,
>and then Origin retire them on your behalf. They are VERY HEAVILY regulated
>by ORER (Office of the Renewable Energy Regulator), so rest assured that
>they are doing the right thing. Some of those RECs even come from Sydney
>Water, as we just sold a butt load.

Retire them? RECs are created then sold then they are retired?

Sydney Water generates their own power to use at some treatment plants where almost all of the power is used onsite does this mean you are eligible for RECs because you used 'greenpower' to power your own site rather than getting it from the grid.

Surely at some stage there must be a saturation point, greenpower bought vs available greenpower. And not just creating/buying/selling RECs.

Just been reading some documents on ORER and there are coal fired powerstations on the list that are accredited and eligible for RECs......


Twitch

3-Dec-2008
9:54:16 PM

On 3/12/2008 devlin66 wrote:
>Made a comment about how the government doesn't really do the utmost to make changes that really have effect.

From a media release:

"The Rudd Labor Government and Lighting Council Australia have joined forces to fast track the phase out of inefficient light bulbs in Australia, bringing forward an import ban to November this year.
The 12-month acceleration of the four-year phase out, beginning with the introduction of a ban on imported incandescent lamps from this year, will result in earlier cuts to greenhouse emissions of more than four million tonnes per year.
Retailers will then have a further 12 months to sell existing supplies before any sort of retail ban comes into effect."

I think this change will have a small effect. But sure the government is there to do things that won't make a difference.

Maybe Bunnings is trying to sell off its stock of incandescent light blubs. I don't think anyone is suggesting that they should just dump them.

widewetandslippery

4-Dec-2008
8:23:01 AM

On 3/12/2008 wallwombat wrote:

>
>>On 3/12/2008 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>>8. Grow as much of your own food as possible, and trade any surplus it
>>with other people you know.
>
>9. Brew your own beer.
>10.Grow your own buds.

11. Breed pigs.

If you're gunna live on beer and cones the only other thing you need is bacon.

psd

4-Dec-2008
9:16:06 AM

On 3/12/2008 Atomic_Tomatoes wrote:
>
>Retire them? RECs are created then sold then they are retired?

if you are interested read this which explains how it works in detail:

http://www.orer.gov.au/publications/pubs/mret-overview-feb08.pdf

>
>Just been reading some documents on ORER and there are coal fired powerstations
>on the list that are accredited and eligible for RECs......
>

Yep a lot of them have installed small green generators like mini-hydro plants on site which sit next to the big thermal plants.


evanbb

4-Dec-2008
9:24:32 AM

On 3/12/2008 Atomic_Tomatoes wrote:
>Retire them? RECs are created then sold then they are retired?
>
>Sydney Water generates their own power to use at some treatment plants
>where almost all of the power is used onsite does this mean you are eligible
>for RECs because you used 'greenpower' to power your own site rather than
>getting it from the grid.
>
>Surely at some stage there must be a saturation point, greenpower bought
>vs available greenpower. And not just creating/buying/selling RECs.

Essentially, yes to all. When power is generated, it all counts as "Black Power", ie coal or gas or whatever the grid mostly makes. But, if the generator is renewable, a REC is created for each MWh. Then, to offset your emissions, one REC is surrendered for wach MWh energy. SW just retired 63,000 RECs to reduce our 07/08 emissions by about 15%.

I don't quite understand the "saturation point" comment, but I'll have a crack. RECs can be created indefinitely, and banked. SW has RECs still they created in 1993. So, you hold onto them as long as you want, and cancel bits of your emissions as you go. SW will be carbon neutral by 2020, or so the plan goes. To do this, each year they will retire enough RECs to cover our whole load. Is this helping you? It's a bloody slippery concept. And a good one to argue with colleagues about.


evanbb

4-Dec-2008
9:29:38 AM

On 4/12/2008 widewetandslippery wrote:
>11. Breed pigs.
>
>If you're gunna live on beer and cones the only other thing you need is
>bacon.

Don't laugh. Anyone seen Hugh Fearnley Whittingstall's "River Cottage" series? He goes bush (English Bush) and starts growing his own food. Raised some pigs. It's a bit hard for average people, but, he had some great suggestions. One option is to form a syndicate with some friends, and pay a farmer to raise a pig/steer/lambs/kids for you. We could get together, pay a farmer to run a pig and feed it organically for us (so it tastes good), then pay an abbattoir to kill it. Then, say, pay a butcher to cut it up, by giving him a leg or something. Then, here's the best part, we make our own bacon, prosciutto, Black Pudding if you're so inclined. Or, we just go camping and chuck the whole bloody thing onto a spit. The idea has a lot of merit in my eyes. And it involves a lot of tasty pork.

devlin66

4-Dec-2008
9:32:11 AM

That almost sounds like Kerry Packer sticking a fire fighting water cannon on the deck of his big yacht so he can claim a tax exemption as a fire tender. Yea I know the tax laws allow it but come on!
I work in the power industry and unless they are doing a full HRSG unit they aren't even going to come close to offsetting any of the emissions from a coal fired power station with a small generator. It's an interesting topic though and I am keen to see how it will really pan out in the future.

psd

4-Dec-2008
9:54:51 AM

On 4/12/2008 devlin66 wrote:

>I work in the power industry and unless they are doing a full HRSG unit
>they aren't even going to come close to offsetting any of the emissions
>from a coal fired power station with a small generator.

Absolutely and they're not meant to. It's just an extra revenue stream for the generator - you can sell the RECs to electricity retailers who have to surrender a certain number each year.

devlin66

4-Dec-2008
10:43:19 AM

As Evan said a slippery slope!

Atomic_Tomatoes

4-Dec-2008
11:24:10 AM

On 4/12/2008 evanbb wrote:
>On 3/12/2008 Atomic_Tomatoes wrote:
>>Retire them? RECs are created then sold then they are retired?
>>
>>Sydney Water generates their own power to use at some treatment plants
>>where almost all of the power is used onsite does this mean you are eligible
>>for RECs because you used 'greenpower' to power your own site rather
>than
>>getting it from the grid.
>>
>>Surely at some stage there must be a saturation point, greenpower bought
>>vs available greenpower. And not just creating/buying/selling RECs.
>
>
>I don't quite understand the "saturation point" comment, but I'll have
>a crack. RECs can be created indefinitely, and banked. SW has RECs still
>they created in 1993. So, you hold onto them as long as you want, and cancel
>bits of your emissions as you go.

Thanks for your response Evan.
I was asking the question in relation to the genaral public (households) buying greenpower from suppliers.
mwh bought vs actual green mwh produced. I am talking about real green power being produced not greenpower by creating buying and selling RECs.

lacto

4-Dec-2008
11:42:11 AM

hydro is the biggest source of green power though very liitlle exrea capacity is being built at present Mt McKay bogong Village tunnel and power station would be one of the only new one of late . Wind farms sell their capacity- green gives a higher price and if you put origin panels on your roof then that is origin green power or they buy the RECs from other developments . Gas turbines are much morte carbon producing than coal fired with quicker ramp up and down.
To me wind is certainly the way to go but needs to be able to store energy from peak production to peak use these are rarely at the same time. My belief is that the huge storage capacity of the snowy scheme together with the head differentials between the storages offer huge potential to store power . A tunnel exists between Jindabyne and Ecumbene with a head difference of 230 metres a new reversible hydro power station could be built and if linked with a new interconnector to the la trobe valley could certainly go a long way to reducing the reliance on coal . At present only two reversible generators exist at blowering but the whole of the Tumut system could be made reversible with a total head of 730 m versus the murray with 700 m and only a small holding pondage at khancoban . Certainly in Victoria with price rises coming through in Jan 09 and smart meters about to be rolled out and carbon tax tipped to add 4 cent 1khh the cost of using electricity unwisely will esculate greatly and will certainly impact some peoples usage .

fish boy

4-Dec-2008
1:24:56 PM

On 4/12/2008 widewetandslippery wrote:
>On 3/12/2008 wallwombat wrote:
>
>>
>>>On 3/12/2008 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>>>8. Grow as much of your own food as possible, and trade any surplus
>it
>>>with other people you know.
>>
>>9. Brew your own beer.
>>10.Grow your own buds.
>
>11. Breed pigs.
>
>If you're gunna live on beer and cones the only other thing you need is
>bacon.

You should be PM.

fish boy

4-Dec-2008
1:32:29 PM

On 4/12/2008 lacto wrote: morte carbon producing

Freudian slip?

devlin66

4-Dec-2008
1:50:54 PM

On 4/12/2008 lacto wrote:
>hydro is the biggest source of green power

Biggest problem with the hydro scheme is the distance to teh mains users ie. the cities. Big line losses start to accumulate once you get to far away from the source. It is definitely something that should be exploited though, just not teh only solution.

The same reverse concept can be used on the coast too. Once the tide starts to drop the flow out of a pond can drive generators. Then at teh bottom of the tide the flow is reversed and the water flows back into the holding ponds. Unfortunately a lull at top and bottom occurs so a supplementary source would be needed. Maybe use someof the power produced to pump water to an even higher holding and it is released on the lull through another generator. Again these are for local supplies, not the be all and and all for the country.

>cost of using electricity unwisely will esculate greatly and will certainly impact some >peoples usage.

I have already noticed a change in the way we think at home. After two bills in a row over $400 it needs to change. Lights are used less. Reset the computer to power down afetr 10mins. Made aware of the use of the clothes dryer (my pet hate but with 4 kids an evil need). Haven't turned the air conditioner on for a long time. Still not really sure of the reason for the high use though but the cost is very effective deterant.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

5-Dec-2008
12:52:34 PM

On 4/12/2008 lacto wrote:
> At present only two reversible generators exist at blowering but the whole of the Tumut system could be made reversible with a total head of 730 m versus the murray with 700 m and only a small holding pondage at khancoban .

The reversible generators are at Talbingo (not Blowering). They are not used much as originally designed, ie to pump the water back up during off peak times into Talbingo storage from Jounama pondage and re-use it for further power generation during peak demand times.
The technology certainly works, but the cost of using that off peak power to regenerate the water backwards was apparently not economic, so they simply stopped doing it.
~> I predict this will change when the cost of electricity goes up (allegedly by 14% this coming year), and they will then start doing it again when the $ return is there.

lacto

5-Dec-2008
2:14:50 PM

Sorry just from memory quoting blowering . Today spot price was $10 at 2 am 4600 Mw demand and $60+ around 2 pm with 7000 Mw demand so they margins are there but probably not the willingness of the generators to let snowy make a quid on the differentials . After all the generators rely on very high spot prices up to $20,000 a Mwh to generate thir profits . Also of interest is the two humps in demand each night when night rate hot water /heating cuts in solar should replace a large portion of this or aleast the cheaper rate only available to supplement solar


Dom

5-Dec-2008
3:16:33 PM

On 5/12/2008 lacto wrote:
>Sorry just from memory quoting blowering . Today spot price was $10 at
>2 am 4600 Mw demand and $60+ around 2 pm with 7000 Mw demand so they margins
>are there but probably not the willingness of the generators to let snowy make a quid >on the differentials.

How are the other generators prohibiting the snowy region from making a quid? I would have thought that the increase in the price during peak demand periods simply reflected the marginal cost of dispatching additional generation capacity which is more expensive than coal fire gen's. Southern hydro and hydro tas have both stopped selling electricity below $340 - $350 per MWh because their dam levels (and expected rain fall) are historically very low. In the past both generators were bidding around high $200's per MWh. That higher price just reflects the opportunity, which is foregone, to run their generators in the future. The margins, after adjusting for risk, are actually razor thin (it's a volume game).

> After all the generators rely on very high spot prices up to $20,000 a Mwh to >generate thir profits .
The spot price in the NEM is currently capped at $10,000 per MWh (see http://nemmco.com.au/powersystemops/150-0014.html).

>Also of interest is the two humps in demand each night when night rate hot water
>/heating cuts in solar should replace a large portion of this or aleast
>the cheaper rate only available to supplement solar
Supplementing solar is a poor proxy for increasing electricity prices which would artificially reduce the demand for alternatives which may be cost competitive.

I guess the whole situation hinges on the government successfully implementing a national wide carbon tax and not bowing to special interest groups formed by heavy emitters. God help us…

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