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bow line


belayslave

24-Aug-2006
3:14:17 PM

On 24/08/2006 nmonteith wrote:
>On 24/08/2006 NEVERCLIMBED32 wrote:
>>Just wonder what others do to protect
>>an abseil.
>
>Double ropes = Petzel Shunt
>Single ropes - Gri-gri (or Eddy!)

I assume you're using a backup along with your grigri or eddy neil?

generally i use a klemheist knot but it can slip a little in some cases. so when in doubt i use the prusik
knot.

I've used a shunt in industrial work but who can be bothered lugging one of them
around on a rack up up a multipitch!

gfdonc

24-Aug-2006
3:24:18 PM

On 24/08/2006 NEVERCLIMBED32 wrote:
> Just wonder what others do to protect an abseil.

In order of expediency:
1. Nothing. Rap carefully. Check everything twice.
2. Don't be first, then get a fireman's belay from the person below.
3. Tie in to the rope (both ropes!) somewhere below you, or the end of the rope on multiple raps. Risks a tangle, but quick and effective. Good for covering short tricky sections (like roofs).
4. Rig some sort of friction knot. Very rare for me to do this these days.
5. For beginners, a proper belay on a separate rope.

Most of the time I just use method 1. I reckon the extra complication of method 4 outweighs the benefits. I realise I may be alone on this, but my theory is I'd rather divert 100% of my attention to the rap device and holding the ropes instead of frigging around making sure my friction knot doesn't snag anywhere.

These days I mostly rap on a Sticht plate. When rapping on a figure-8, I use 2 locking biners - there's a few threads around on the web about how a twisted fig-8 can break open a locked gate.

In all cases the ropes are knotted at the ends with a stopper knot.


nmonteith

24-Aug-2006
3:31:17 PM

On 24/08/2006 belayslave wrote:
>I assume you're using a backup along with your grigri or eddy neil?

um - no.

>I've used a shunt in industrial work but who can be bothered lugging one
>of them
>around on a rack up up a multipitch!

Its rare - but i do bring my shunt on longer routes with some chance of self-rescue being required (ie
mountaineering). Its a good ascender for double ropes as well!

I very rarely use any additional backups of any kind apart from tieing a knot at the end of the rope!

Paul

24-Aug-2006
3:32:09 PM

Not sure if this has been mentioned but one way of making the bowline a bit safer is the Yosemite bowline or yosemite backup. Because it does not include a large bulky stopper knot it can be usefull when working with pullies

normal bowline.

yosemite bowline

Another variation on the double bowline designed to stop slippage.

**do your own reaserch before using unfamilar knotts just incase someone else is wrong**


brat

24-Aug-2006
3:55:37 PM

I use the bowline a lot at work (non-kernmantle) but avoid using it recreationally, even the double with backup, however I'd not thought to run the tail back as per your diagram, nice, just shows, 30 years of rigging/climbing and still learning!

May try that with a half hitch rather than the water knot!

Can't quite make out what they've done with the Yosemite?


HM33

24-Aug-2006
4:18:09 PM

the Yosemite look like the rethreaded version.

You just tie the bowline but then rethread the long tail back through the knot as you would a rethreaded figure of 8.


Nick Kaz

24-Aug-2006
4:53:33 PM

Paul the last knot is the same as the knot in my link, except that half the rethreading is done in the intital double loop and the final rethreading doesen't go back through the harnes. I submit that the method shown in my link is a quicker and easier way of tieing the same knot.


sliamese

24-Aug-2006
6:34:47 PM

>You might be shocked what you'll see people use when you look closely
>and I don't mean just with knots. Lots of accidents just waiting to happen
>through a lack of knowing any better.

why do i never hear about all these accidents? maybe because you can work safely past what most people would say is death. not reccomending it, just saying that if i beleived half of whats passed as fact on forums such as these, i wouldn't climb. if your that worried just boulder, no highballs of course.


manuinthewoods

25-Aug-2006
11:14:16 AM

>why do i never hear about all these accidents? maybe because you can work
>safely past what most people would say is death. not reccomending it, just
>saying that if i beleived half of whats passed as fact on forums such as
>these, i wouldn't climb. if your that worried just boulder, no highballs
>of course.

Maybe because dead people don't post on forum?
(just being a smartass)


belayslave

25-Aug-2006
12:12:17 PM

>On 24/08/2006 sliamese wrote:
>
>why do i never hear about all these accidents? maybe because you can work
>safely past what most people would say is death. not reccomending it, just
>saying that if i beleived half of whats passed as fact on forums such as
>these, i wouldn't climb. if your that worried just boulder, no highballs
>of course.

give it a few more years in game and i'm sure (and you probably already do have some) you'll have your
own stories of scary s**t that you've seen or even done yourself. You can definitely work past the
reccommended practises of what other people might call death, but can you do it safely? not IMO.

I'm often more scared bouldering then i am when on a rope. hell just look at the accidents that have
happened (multile broken legs/ankles) at TCE in the past few years in the bouldering caves!


Phil S

25-Aug-2006
3:42:08 PM

On 24/8/06 CanBeDone wrote:
>I’ve been using the double bow line for 10 years or so and never had any problems. I >must admit I have had the “stopper knot” come undone on the odd occasion, but still >the blow line holds.

I used to think the same until I had a particularly memorable moment at Bowens Creek. I'm in the habit of making a final check of my end of the system when I begin to get a bit pumped, before I forget about everything except fighting. On this occation the check reveiled a re-threaded bowline with the tail secured NOT. The fishermans knot securing the tail had untied and the re-threading had un-re-threaded leaving a very loose single bowline - and an excuse to grab the nearest 'draw.

I was careless and simply hadn't cinched everything tight.
And too many checks sometimes are not enough...

But I still use a re-threaded bowline with a fishermans knot securing the tail.


sliamese

27-Aug-2006
10:13:06 PM

On 24/08/2006 gfdonc wrote:

>3. Tie in to the rope (both ropes!) somewhere below you, or the end of
>the rope on multiple raps. Risks a tangle, but quick and effective. Good
>for covering short tricky sections (like roofs).

i personally will rarely ever tie in to the end of the rope below me. a guy i know was doing a 140m abseil, on two ropes with a gri-gri. he was tied into the end as a backup. the further he went down the worse it got due to the rope twisting but having now-where to go. he was getting close to the end of the second rope when the sheath exploded right in front of his eyes. very panicy moments followed as he pulled the damaged section back through the gri-gri.

Onsight

28-Aug-2006
9:54:56 AM

>when the sheath exploded right in front of his eyes.

WTF? Would have liked to have seen that.

Though I would have thought that tying into the end of the rope on an abseil is bound to cause twisting problems.

Paul

28-Aug-2006
10:23:25 AM

>i personally will rarely ever tie in to the end of the rope below me.
>a guy i know was doing a 140m abseil, on two ropes with a gri-gri. he was
>tied into the end as a backup. the further he went down the worse it got
>due to the rope twisting but having now-where to go. he was getting close
>to the end of the second rope when the sheath exploded right in front of
>his eyes. very panicy moments followed as he pulled the damaged section
>back through the gri-gri.

Dont most people just tie a knott in the end of the rope instead?

Just how do you abseil on two ropes with a gri-gri? or were they hoined end to end?


nmonteith

28-Aug-2006
10:35:22 AM

On 27/08/2006 sliamese wrote:
>he was getting close
>to the end of the second rope when the sheath exploded right in front of
>his eyes.

I have seen gri-gris burn straight through the sheath of ropes when someone raps really fast then hangs
around on the end of the rope. The cam heats up - then is forced against the rope when you hang
statically and literatly melts the sheath (listen closely and you can hear it hissing and bubbling!).

gfdonc

28-Aug-2006
10:59:41 AM

On 28/08/2006 Paul wrote:
>
>Dont most people just tie a knott in the end of the rope instead?

Yes, but this won't save you if the descender fails or you become detached from it. Being tied in is the ultimate backup, provided you don't hit anything on the way down.

Paul

30-Aug-2006
10:43:19 AM

On 28/08/2006 nmonteith wrote:

>I have seen gri-gris burn straight through the sheath of ropes when someone
>raps really fast then hangs
>around on the end of the rope. The cam heats up - then is forced against
>the rope when you hang
>statically and literatly melts the sheath (listen closely and you can
>hear it hissing and bubbling!).

There like most devices where there size and heat dissapation limits the distance which can be abseiled and their uses. One training manual which I dug up stated that Gri-Gri's, figure eights & belay plates should not be used for decents of more that 50 meters because of their lack of heat dissapation. Not sure what manufacturers guidelines are though and I guess that the speed of decent would also have something to do with it as well


nmonteith

30-Aug-2006
10:47:34 AM

On 30/08/2006 Paul wrote:
>There like most devices where there size and heat dissapation limits the
>distance which can be abseiled and their uses. One training manual which
>I dug up stated that Gri-Gri's, figure eights & belay plates should not
>be used for decents of more that 50 meters because of their lack of heat
>dissapation. Not sure what manufacturers guidelines are though and I guess
>that the speed of decent would also have something to do with it as well

So rapping at ultra fast speed on a 70m rope isn't ideal then? A few weeks back i managed to 'hitch a
ride' down a 200m fixed static rope at Verdon with my gri-gri. It certainly saved some annoying knot
changes. I went slowly though (mainly from the massive amounts of friction generated with that rope
weight)

simey

29-Nov-2006
6:40:15 PM

Just been reading this thread and was surprised by some of the responses.

I use bowlines frequently in rigging, towing cars, tying surfboards on roofs... but I've never understood the logic of tying-in with a bowline.

Bowlines simply aren't as bombproof as fig-8's. When it comes to tying-in to the rope I want to use a knot that will withstand all the wriggling, jiggling, rubbing and grinding that might affect a knot whilst climbing a route.

Stopper knots come undone all the time, so I don't want to be trusting my life to that form of back-up either.

I weigh 90kgs and I've taken plenty of falls in a wide range of situations, yet untying my knot afterwards has never been an issue. The fact that it takes me 30 seconds longer to loosen my knot doesn't seem like a big deal.

If you still believe bowlines are the go for tying-in, then check out the latest Black Diamond catalogue (I think it was BD). There is a story about a guy who busted himself up pretty good after his bowline came undone.


nmonteith

29-Nov-2006
6:51:55 PM

They are just sooo much easier to un-tie when you are ultra pumped. Useful for hard sport climbing - not
great for long trad.

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